TC PAYT power grab

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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby lynn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:25 pm

the "nullification" has NOT happened
it is only proposed!
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Dennis King » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:05 pm

lynn wrote:the "nullification" has NOT happened
it is only proposed!


Funny how they changed the budget to reflect the new found windfall if they implemented PAYT. If only a proposal, the change in the budget should not happen but as you say, they can do what they want and they made it clear this is what they will do. I can only hope they will decide against this at the DS. If we have such an outpouring, maybe they will listen but once you add to the tax burden of a select group of people you have already deionized, well it is much easier to keep the money you think will come in. After all, they have warrant articles to restore those town employees so if the budget is now lower than last years rate, so much easier to add them at DS. That is the plan all along. In that past, the governing body always would abide by the will of the people. Their power (influence really) was in their votes to recommend or not to on the article. This is new to the town, an article that means nothing, because WESAYSO, that is the new TC. Very sad turn of events. I sure miss the days when Chris was on the board, they listened to the people and put warrant articles for the people to decide. Somehow, we now have a "Nanny state" where the TC members feel they know better than us and whether we like it or not, they will FORCE us to bend to their will.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby RBarnes » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:18 pm

Dennis King wrote:The FACTS are these, 6500 single family homes of which 4500 have stickers so at least 2000 choice CS and it is more likely 3000 as Tim pointed out that some homes have more than one sticker.


Dennis, your "FACTS" are incorrect yet again.

It was pointed out that 4500 is the number of stickers given out, not the number of homes to which stickers were given to so the part I put in bold above is just wrong.

For that matter the stickers may not even correspond to a home as I know people who live in condos and apartments who have stickers on their cars because they sometimes use the station to toss out large items or in other cases use it for the recycling center because their local dumpster or trash collection doesn't offer it.

Merrimack has over 9,000 residential properties made up of condos, apartments, homes or whatever and you continue to focus only on the number of single family homes as if they are somehow the only ones impacted here.

Edit: It should also be noted that several people in town got stickers who do not even use the transfer station since the stickers are validation for the use of the beach at Waserman Park since we've closed it to outsiders. Making the 4500 number even less realistic .
Last edited by RBarnes on Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Fitzie » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:30 pm

Dennis King wrote:
lynn wrote:the "nullification" has NOT happened
it is only proposed!


Funny how they changed the budget to reflect the new found windfall if they implemented PAYT. If only a proposal, the change in the budget should not happen but as you say, they can do what they want and they made it clear this is what they will do. I can only hope they will decide against this at the DS. If we have such an outpouring, maybe they will listen but once you add to the tax burden of a select group of people you have already deionized, well it is much easier to keep the money you think will come in. After all, they have warrant articles to restore those town employees so if the budget is now lower than last years rate, so much easier to add them at DS. That is the plan all along. In that past, the governing body always would abide by the will of the people. Their power (influence really) was in their votes to recommend or not to on the article. This is new to the town, an article that means nothing, because WESAYSO, that is the new TC. Very sad turn of events. I sure miss the days when Chris was on the board, they listened to the people and put warrant articles for the people to decide. Somehow, we now have a "Nanny state" where the TC members feel they know better than us and whether we like it or not, they will FORCE us to bend to their will.


Unmitigated bull*hit Dennis. In "the past" the governing bodies would manipulate not only what was presented to the people on the ballot but also, through their recommendation or lack thereof, the ultimate outcome. How many examples would you like? 10? 20? 100?

Nobody is FORCING you to use the TS, only to fund it according to your usage. YOU retain COMPLETE control of YOUR costs. This would normally have you doing backflips but.......well again it has more to do with your ego than anything else. PAYT structured to cover the TS costs will = no more TS because rational people thinking rationally will spend their money on the more convenient option. A drop off site, yes. A meeting place funded by people not meeting there.....nope. Good solution!!
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby lynn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:34 pm

The TC has proposed that this be done - they think it is a good idea
but they have not done it yet
the deliberative session could change a lot of things or nothing
then the people get to vote.
until that is done we don't know what the TC will do

the vote may bless what they are proposing, if may significantly disagree with it or somewhere in between

it remains to be seen what will happen
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby TonyRichardson » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:36 pm

How about we three-fer this.....

1. Close the transfer station down...just end it.

2. Use the budgeted TS money to keep the Police and Fire staffing where it is.

3. Let the market find a solution for each individual and move on to other things.


Sounds like a winner to me
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby MissyB » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:40 pm

Sounds good to me too, Tony. However, watching the TC meeting, it seemed important to the TC that the people have a place to drop off large items so I don't know that they would like that.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Fitzie » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:46 pm

I think you can have #'s 2 and 3 without #1 Tony. I actually think you have to given the town must provide a mechanism for residential waste handling. What will happen (eventually) is the TS will die away without ever being formerly pronounced dead. Then after a little more time goes by the town will adopt a contract servicing 100% of it's residents by leveraging the tonnage they represent. Even then however a drop site will remain for large items....oh yea.....and residents willing to pay 100% of the cost to gather weekly next to a garbage bin yearning for the good old days when Budweiser called all the shots, the town was littered with sludge pits and a man could dump his waste on the financial back of his neighbor.

Bank on it....it is inevitable.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Dennis King » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:54 pm

Rick, Read my quote, I said I agreed with Tim that 4,500 was not realistic, I suggested 3,000. Please read what I said before you slam me, after all, it is right in the quote you took

Tony, sorry dude but the town is mandated by state law to provide a way for people to take care of their trash.

We voted this in as a town several years ago and have the TS which everyone can use (nothing would stop a condo association from stopping their trash and using self haul- the reason is more about choice just as we see in the 2,000+ homes that choose CB as well, if times get hard as they are now, they can always use the option of the TS and of course all can use it for yard waste, getting compost for their gardens, sand for their walkways, and to throw away their sofas etc.)

Lynn, the budget has been changed to reflect the new revenue they expect from the TS (using the 4500 number BTW which is why Tom K was confused and since we have no accurate count, we can only guess so the revenue is just that, a guess and does not take into account the number of people who will give up and pay the $7/week rather than get whacked for $4.50 or more for the "privilege" of throwing away their trash. You may see this as fluid but the TC already acted and made it clear the will of the people means nothing to them. They admitted the town would never vote for it so they will "FORCE" us as Dan so eloquently put it.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby mmoy » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:07 pm

As someone in a Condo, I'd prefer the TS as it is. We already have enough non-residents using our dumpsters.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby lynn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:01 pm

The budget can be changed
and all revenue numbers are estimates not just6 the PAYT ones
the TC has only made their intentions known based on the information
provided and I would suspect/hope that they would take into consideration
the results of the vote that will happen in April.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby TonyRichardson » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:51 pm

Dennis King wrote:Rick, Read my quote, I said I agreed with Tim that 4,500 was not realistic, I suggested 3,000. Please read what I said before you slam me, after all, it is right in the quote you took

Tony, sorry dude but the town is mandated by state law to provide a way for people to take care of their trash.

We voted this in as a town several years ago and have the TS which everyone can use (nothing would stop a condo association from stopping their trash and using self haul- the reason is more about choice just as we see in the 2,000+ homes that choose CB as well, if times get hard as they are now, they can always use the option of the TS and of course all can use it for yard waste, getting compost for their gardens, sand for their walkways, and to throw away their sofas etc.)

Lynn, the budget has been changed to reflect the new revenue they expect from the TS (using the 4500 number BTW which is why Tom K was confused and since we have no accurate count, we can only guess so the revenue is just that, a guess and does not take into account the number of people who will give up and pay the $7/week rather than get whacked for $4.50 or more for the "privilege" of throwing away their trash. You may see this as fluid but the TC already acted and made it clear the will of the people means nothing to them. They admitted the town would never vote for it so they will "FORCE" us as Dan so eloquently put it.



Quote an actual RSA if you are claiming the state is mandating something please.

The state does not however mandate a transfer station Dennis.

Without madating its use, it does not work economically.

That does not change.

Another solution must be found at some point, I agree with Fitzie in that it will die on its own if we stay on this path.

I want don't want to waste another 10 years of taxes subsidising it, apparently you do.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby TonyRichardson » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:53 pm

Fitzie wrote:I think you can have #'s 2 and 3 without #1 Tony. I actually think you have to given the town must provide a mechanism for residential waste handling. What will happen (eventually) is the TS will die away without ever being formerly pronounced dead. Then after a little more time goes by the town will adopt a contract servicing 100% of it's residents by leveraging the tonnage they represent. Even then however a drop site will remain for large items....oh yea.....and residents willing to pay 100% of the cost to gather weekly next to a garbage bin yearning for the good old days when Budweiser called all the shots, the town was littered with sludge pits and a man could dump his waste on the financial back of his neighbor.

Bank on it....it is inevitable.


I agree with you Fitzie, I just don't want to waste a decade of tax revenue keeping it online, when we know it won't work.
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Wayne » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:51 pm

Dennis King wrote:The FACTS are these, 6500 single family homes of which 4500 have stickers so at least 2000 choice CS and it is more likely 3000 as Tim pointed out that some homes have more than one sticker.

I searched old internet sites to find some numbers that were, as Fitzie pointed out, the ones that were vetted and in the solid waste committee's final reports. Dennis, where you seem to be guessing to come up with your facts ("it is more likely 3000"), these were numbers that everyone seemed to agree on.

3250 Single Family Households That Deliver Their Own Waste
3050 Single Family Households That Use Private Collection
2770 Multi-Family Households That Use Private Collection

(And might I add that I have 3 stickers for 3 vehicles, but contract for curbside pickup.)
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Re: TC PAYT power grab

Postby Fitzie » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:23 pm

Wayne wrote:
Dennis King wrote:The FACTS are these, 6500 single family homes of which 4500 have stickers so at least 2000 choice CS and it is more likely 3000 as Tim pointed out that some homes have more than one sticker.

I searched old internet sites to find some numbers that were, as Fitzie pointed out, the ones that were vetted and in the solid waste committee's final reports. Dennis, where you seem to be guessing to come up with your facts ("it is more likely 3000"), these were numbers that everyone seemed to agree on.

3250 Single Family Households That Deliver Their Own Waste
3050 Single Family Households That Use Private Collection
2770 Multi-Family Households That Use Private Collection

(And might I add that I have 3 stickers for 3 vehicles, but contract for curbside pickup.)


These are based on the numbers I gathered when writing the Minority Opinion (very "minority" as in 9 to 2 :) ). They were first confirmed by the haulers themselves and later confirmed by SWAC 2 after SWAC 1 was dissolved because the Chairman went on record threatening to force a TS on LR if I didn't drop CS and get on board of a TS in the Industrial zone warrant article. Funny, I don't recall any screaming from Dennis on THAT one. Anyway....

What are the numbers TODAY?
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