Removing Tolls

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Removing Tolls

Postby tim dutton » Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:38 pm

If you remove the exit 11 toll all the traffic will just go to exit 11 and get off there creating more traffic at another exit which is a mess already.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby Brian McCarthy » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:28 am

In case people are wondering where Tim got this idea, please view the beginning of our last TC meeting.

tim dutton wrote:If you remove the exit 11 toll all the traffic will just go to exit 11 and get off there creating more traffic at another exit which is a mess already.


This issue was brought up that evening, and ''people in the know" will know what to do to avoid the toll, even if they are not going to the mall. Heck Fidelity people may start doing that!

Oh, and this was ONLY A SUGGESTION (that included removing exit 12 tolls also) this was not put forward to the State.

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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby andysinnh » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:57 am

Brian McCarthy wrote:In case people are wondering where Tim got this idea, please view the beginning of our last TC meeting.

tim dutton wrote:If you remove the exit 11 toll all the traffic will just go to exit 11 and get off there creating more traffic at another exit which is a mess already.


This issue was brought up that evening, and ''people in the know" will know what to do to avoid the toll, even if they are not going to the mall. Heck Fidelity people may start doing that!

Oh, and this was ONLY A SUGGESTION (that included removing exit 12 tolls also) this was not put forward to the State.

Brian

Actually, according to the Telegraph, Deborah Pignatelli is trying to push this through, and while I admire the spirit I agree that putting tolls at exit 10 but not exit 11 will be a huge issue with the mall traffic all filtering thru exit 11. Way I see it, an "all or nothing" toll approach is required, especially since if you go past merrimack and head towards the airport it's toll-free....

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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby RBarnes » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:36 pm

andysinnh wrote:Actually, according to the Telegraph, Deborah Pignatelli is trying to push this through, and while I admire the spirit I agree that putting tolls at exit 10 but not exit 11 will be a huge issue with the mall traffic all filtering thru exit 11. Way I see it, an "all or nothing" toll approach is required, especially since if you go past merrimack and head towards the airport it's toll-free....


Of course she is, it's an election year. I've noticed she seems to be very active at wanting to fight the tolls around election times but seems to be quiet the rest of the time and meanwhile we still have them.

Personally I think even if just 1 or 2 of the tolls were eliminated it would be a step in the right direction and might be a possible leverage to eventually get the remaining toll or tolls removed later down the road. All or nothing is a nice idea but so far we've pushed for all and gotten nothing so something would be better then nothing if you ask me.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby TonyRichardson » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:23 pm

I agree with you Rick, unfortunately it appears that politics as the art of compromise has been lost in the last couple of decades.

Nowadays if you propose moving one toll the people that use the other ones object because THEY aren't getting the benefit.
Although they never actually put it that way, instead they erect a straw man argument instead.

e.g. traffic flow changes as a reason to not remove one unless you remove them all.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby pumbaa » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:20 am

The connection from exit 11 to the outlet mall area is so direct, I suspect there will be a lot of people using 11 anyway, especially from the north, to avoid congestion at exit 10. Take out that toll, and it will certainly see a lot more traffic. That one just doesn't make sense. I suppose you could argue for the removal of the exit 12 tolls. You really have to hate tolls a lot if you are going to drive that far north, then wind your way back to Continental Blvd or Industrial Dr. on DW Hwy. Coming from the north, you would need to get on DW Hwy by Macy's and go all the way from there - not practical. However, enough local commuters might skip 11 in favor of 12 to exacerbate an already bad traffic situation at the off ramp light, which backs onto DW Hwy at certain times of day now. So in the end, you could eliminate one toll, at the expense of more traffic headaches in that area. Hence the all or nothing approach - which aint' gonna happen. But I think you are right. Elections are coming and Ms. Pignatelli has to press that hot button.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby TonyRichardson » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:51 am

Something to consider....

Once you get ONE of the three Merrimack tolls removed, you can use that removal to justify removing the others.

That is the time the traffic flow changes become useful, as a tool to leverage removing the other two tolls to get the traffic flow evened out again.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby pumbaa » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:13 am

TonyRichardson wrote:That is the time the traffic flow changes become useful, as a tool to leverage removing the other two tolls to get the traffic flow evened out again.


A nice theory, but as long as they can show potential loss of revenue, the tolls are staying. Assuming you could argue that the tolls near the mall would offset exit 12 revenue, and get that removed, I don't think you would ever convince them to give up the 10 & 11 cash just because of traffic flow issues. I think you would get a response from Concord like: "you asked for toll relief for years and we gave it to you at ext 12. Don't cry to us now about traffic."

I still think the easiest solution, with less revenue impact, would be a 100% discount to Merrimack residents with transponders. You could probably argue that the mall traffic will offset that. It's not perfect in that is does force you into EZ pass to take advantage of it, but it is a simple way to target relief to Merrimack. I'm not buying the argument that would be too hard to manage.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby tim dutton » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:11 am

I recall at the time of the town vote to re zone the area , the Mall owners states that they could get the tolls removed. Nice way to get votes, was never going to happen. Exits 1o and 11 will remain tolls. Maybe exit 12 removed, however, the state only sees green and the rest of the state could care less because they are not affected.

Deborah Pignatelli is more concerned that Nashua Roads will be impacted due to possible traffic backing up on the turnpike.

If everyone remembers, she was the one that wrote the bill to exclude any tolls in Nashua. Election year, Won't get my vote.
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Re: Removing Tolls

Postby TonyRichardson » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:44 am

pumbaa wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:That is the time the traffic flow changes become useful, as a tool to leverage removing the other two tolls to get the traffic flow evened out again.


A nice theory, but as long as they can show potential loss of revenue, the tolls are staying. Assuming you could argue that the tolls near the mall would offset exit 12 revenue, and get that removed, I don't think you would ever convince them to give up the 10 & 11 cash just because of traffic flow issues. I think you would get a response from Concord like: "you asked for toll relief for years and we gave it to you at ext 12. Don't cry to us now about traffic."

I still think the easiest solution, with less revenue impact, would be a 100% discount to Merrimack residents with transponders. You could probably argue that the mall traffic will offset that. It's not perfect in that is does force you into EZ pass to take advantage of it, but it is a simple way to target relief to Merrimack. I'm not buying the argument that would be too hard to manage.


That is really the crux of the issue right there.

Revenue for the state, whether real or perceived.
Along with the the second order issue of what happens to the workers at the toll boths.

Those two issues are what keeps those toll booths in place even though the industries that made it pay off in the first place are long gone.
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