Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

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Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Pay As You Throw
33
48%
Disposal costs paid through property tax
36
52%
 
Total votes : 69

Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Tom Mahon » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:52 am

Thank you for your considered discussion of alternatives.

As for "closing" the TS and going to contracted CS, this was discussed on January 17th and voted down. Not because it does not have merit, but from my perspective, the proponents were rushing a process that will take more time than they envisioned. There are a myriad of details that have to be considered, not the least of which are a contract with a private hauler or haulers, a new ordinance, dealing with bulky items, brush and electronics, etc. My consideration was to bring it back when we could deal with this without the pressure of a deadline that might work against us in negotiations and implementation. (A variation of Decide in Haste; Repent at Leisure or Make Haste, Slowly.) Dan Dwyer has done a fair amount of the preliminary investigation, but none of it has been brought to the full council for review.

I am only speaking for myself on this, so don't bombard me with demands for details. I have none other than what others have discussed at this point and if I did I would be loathe to discuss as the forum has a way of developing "urban legend," as in "But you said..." There is likely to be a Working Group proposed in the near future to bring this proposal forward again after more complete investigation of the details and costs associated with such a conversion.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:05 pm

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Washington, D.C., supports PAYT's approach to solid waste management because it encompasses:

1. Environmental Sustainability: Communities with PAYT programs have reported significant increases in recycling and reductions in waste, primarily due to the waste reduction incentive. Less waste and more recycling means fewer natural resources need to be extracted, Additionally, greenhouse gas emissions from manufacturing, distributing, using and disposing of its remains are reduced through recycling and waste reduction.

2. Economic Sustainability: PAYT helps communities struggling to cope with soaring municipal solid waste management expenses. They can generate revenues to cover solid waste costs, including costs for recycling and composting. Residents also benefit because they can control their trash bills.

3. Equity: When trash management costs are hidden in taxes or charged at a flat rate, residents who recycle and prevent waste subsidize their neighbors' wastefulness. Under PAYT, residents only pay for what they throw away.


#1 requires perspective. From mankind's perspective recycling preserves the environment for our enjoyment during our short stay here. I recycle in the hope my grandchildren will still be able to find a pond somewhere to hang around all day catching sunfish, horn pout and the occassional snapping turtle. From the earth's perspective however once we've followed the path of every other species (kaput) the earth will shake us off like a bad skin rash over a very short period of time (cosmic time scale). In 1,000,000 years you'll never know we were here. I look at it this way: When Yellowstone again blows sometime soon it'll dwarf all the pollution mankind has generated by, I think, several hundred orders of magnitude. Given it has blown many, many times already and the earth is still here, I'm not overly worried the earth won't survive us as a sepcies. When we recycle, we do so for ourselves (or more correctly, for future generations).

#'s 2 and 3 are difficult to find fault with however. Add the current CS participation rate and the commercial tax revenues and its almost ridiculous that MMK isn't already PAYT.

Dennis, I hope you're studying up!!!
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby joeteacher73 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:25 pm

This material posted above makes sense but I am questioning if you can hire a vendor to pick-up both trash and non-sorted recyclables? If so, then those who are not enchanted with purchasing special bags -- could be a hassle -- could contract out refuse removal and still recycle. If one cannot seucre a private company to handle both trash and non-sorted recyables, then it is possible many previous recyclers will abandon the practice.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:21 pm

joeteacher73 wrote:This material posted above makes sense but I am questioning if you can hire a vendor to pick-up both trash and non-sorted recyclables? If so, then those who are not enchanted with purchasing special bags -- could be a hassle -- could contract out refuse removal and still recycle. If one cannot seucre a private company to handle both trash and non-sorted recyables, then it is possible many previous recyclers will abandon the practice.


Joe,

What scenario are you assuming when submitting these questions? I ask because the response is different within each.

1. Existing
2. Exisiting with TS PAYT
3. Town-managed CS for all
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby joeteacher73 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Fitize,

My situation is that I am a self-hauler who heavily uses the single stream recycling option at the TS. I bring a couple of bags of waste and a large bag of recyclables to the TS each week. My fear is that I will lose the single stream recycling if I drop going to the transfer station. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:06 pm

Nat,

Could you change the poll question to "Should we move to PayT + Tax rate funding, or keep it as is with tax rate funding only?"

If you notice, nobody is mentioning dropping the tax rate funding as part of this "plan"

Transfer station funding is in next years proposed budget along with PayT.

PayT is going to be just another added cost for us.


Resetting the counter or making a new poll to reflect this will likely dramatically change the outcome.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby RBarnes » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:41 am

TonyRichardson wrote:If you notice, nobody is mentioning dropping the tax rate funding as part of this "plan"


That's because it's costing this town around $500 or more for every person using that station. If we put the full cost on the users you would see it shut down over night because no one in their right mind would pay what we're paying. But because they aren't paying the full cost and get the other portion of town to share the cost no one seems to have a problem with it.

If this town ever saw an itemized tax bill breaking down what person of their money goes to what part of town and other services I think it would change a lot of people's perspectives on things and you'd see a drastically different town government.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:04 pm

Rick

I like your idea of a breakdown of our tax bill. I've voiced my opinion to the Merrimack Tea people on this topic. We already pay approximately $260 per year in addition to our property tax bill for curbside in my household so why should these TS users have a problem paying too if the TS is costing us so much money for the use of 33% of the residents? Why should I pay for mine and theirs too? I cannot understand why something so miniscule is such a big deal in comparison to the loss of revenue from the State?
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Nat Fairbanks » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:11 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:Nat,

Could you change the poll question to "Should we move to PayT + Tax rate funding, or keep it as is with tax rate funding only?"

If you notice, nobody is mentioning dropping the tax rate funding as part of this "plan"

Transfer station funding is in next years proposed budget along with PayT.

PayT is going to be just another added cost for us.

Resetting the counter or making a new poll to reflect this will likely dramatically change the outcome.

Feel free to create a new poll with the options you would prefer. I created this poll more than eight years ago so a whole new poll is a much better idea, this one can reflect the ideas presented in 2002 and your new poll can reflect 2011.

-Nat
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Tom Mahon » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:11 pm

Several haulers are advertising recycling pickup as part of their service. I received a mailing from Casella for trash and recyclables. There are several others out there who will do this.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Dennis King » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:30 am

Tom Mahon wrote:Several haulers are advertising recycling pickup as part of their service. I received a mailing from Casella for trash and recyclables. There are several others out there who will do this.


That is good news since most the the current recycling is being done by the evil knuckle dragging self haulers who do not care for the planet!

So now more CS customers will have the option to recycle just like we have at the TS, this is great but beware, the Town Council has you in its sites. Today they take away liberty and freedom from the self haulers, next year, it will be you!

MANDATORY TOWN WIDE PAYT is coming! It is all part of the plan. :shock:

Funny how easy it is to support FORCING other people to recycle (or the irony when you consider they already do the lions share of the town recycling).

Well next year you will no longer have the choice if the town council has its way. Just think how much fun it will be to have your trash sit an extra week on the side of the road because you did not use the right bag. Think it can not happen? Think again!

The TC has you in its cross hairs, oh the joy of naked power, how intoxicating it must be to use funds from cable subscribers to get you new digs, to vote yourself "honorariums" (aka money!) while at the same time cutting union personnel; forcing PAYT on the whole town, well that will be the most fun of all!

Guess the long campaign of lies and distortions have had their effect as I still hear the 1/3 being supported buy 2/3 argument over and over and the facts simply do not support this. Even the poll is about 50/50 but all you need is the extra one percent and that is what you got here; Goebbels would be proud.

All too soon, Merrimack will be a town to be noticed, sort of like New Jersey, you will smell it from miles away, but at least the planet, mother earth, gia or whatever will be happy! :? :( :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:56 am

Dennis King wrote:
Tom Mahon wrote:Several haulers are advertising recycling pickup as part of their service. I received a mailing from Casella for trash and recyclables. There are several others out there who will do this.


That is good news since most the the current recycling is being done by the evil knuckle dragging self haulers who do not care for the planet!

So now more CS customers will have the option to recycle just like we have at the TS, this is great but beware, the Town Council has you in its sites. Today they take away liberty and freedom from the self haulers, next year, it will be you!

MANDATORY TOWN WIDE PAYT is coming! It is all part of the plan. :shock:

Funny how easy it is to support FORCING other people to recycle (or the irony when you consider they already do the lions share of the town recycling).

Well next year you will no longer have the choice if the town council has its way. Just think how much fun it will be to have your trash sit an extra week on the side of the road because you did not use the right bag. Think it can not happen? Think again!

The TC has you in its cross hairs, oh the joy of naked power, how intoxicating it must be to use funds from cable subscribers to get you new digs, to vote yourself "honorariums" (aka money!) while at the same time cutting union personnel; forcing PAYT on the whole town, well that will be the most fun of all!

Guess the long campaign of lies and distortions have had their effect as I still hear the 1/3 being supported buy 2/3 argument over and over and the facts simply do not support this. Even the poll is about 50/50 but all you need is the extra one percent and that is what you got here; Goebbels would be proud.

All too soon, Merrimack will be a town to be noticed, sort of like New Jersey, you will smell it from miles away, but at least the planet, mother earth, gia or whatever will be happy! :? :( :lol: :lol: :lol:



Didn't Dennis claim I was the one fixated on trash? :lol: :lol:

Oh, and the "taking away the liberty and freedom of self haulers", well that's just too much. You can still self-haul, simply PAY YOUR BILL like everyone else. No big deal, is there?

Self-hauling at the expense of others is not a perk Dennis, but you sure seem to think it is. The vote 8 years ago to build the facility did not contain language binding the town to fund the thing forever in the event it couldn't support itself.

And how do you reconcile your suggestion of town-wide CS in one hand with fear-mongering and scary stories about CS in the other? Did you take your meds today?

PS - the facts DO support the 2/3 supporting 1/3 argument. Always have, always will. And here's more bad news for you......its going to get even more ridiculously obvious very soon, I'm guessing 10/90 will be the new percentages. Then the market, sans the taxpayer subsidies and those who suckle on the municipal trash nipple, will drive what was always going to be the ultimate solution.

And all this will happen for less money than is being spent today. You should be congratulated.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby RayWhipple » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:30 am

I want to nnow what is the issue with curb side? Seems As Dennis is against it..seems like a good alternative to a transfere station as we have it now.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby andysinnh » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:52 am

I've never been one to get involved in the TS vs PAYT debate, but I find a lot of the mindset about unbounded trash disposal tied to the historical nature of the way things happen in New England...

Back in the day, every town had a landfill. Every saturday, everyone would gather the weekly trash, go to the dump and socialize. When Merrimack was smaller, it's not unusual to have someone back to the edge of the dumping area and park and not leave for an hour. You'd talk to your neighbors, bring your kids, look over what others threw away - it was a social event! And it didn't matter whether you had a few bags or barrels of trash, or you were cleaning your basement and brought your 10th station wagon load to the dump that day. It didn't cost you anything, and the expense to the town was cheap - a few trash compacting bulldozers and some staff. But trash stayed in the town. Those were the glory days of New England.

when communities had to close their landfills due to various reasons, every community had a real issue - and that's "how do we get rid of the trash now?". As you can see from the debate here, everyone has their favorite method - but the common thread is this - they all cost real money vs the minimal money back when we had landfills. You have to get it either picked up or shipped out. As such, what was chump-change in the 60's is now real money in the next millenium. If you lived in NH you long for the continuance of the TS since you can still bring what you want to the "dump" (now a cement dumping window), but if you ever lived in a more urban area - or other parts of the country - you're used to having your trash picked up every week - or curbside as you see debated here. Everyone has their favorite, and uses that preference to debate what the best method is.

With PAYT, there is no unbounded dumping of trash any more - you pay for what you dump. This is new, and it's hard to swallow for many. You can use the recycling arguement to talk about reduction, but at the end of the day they're paying more for trash disposal than before - even if that cost was buried in a tax bill vs "in your face" when you buy a bag. The real "rub" is whether the tax rate reduces enough to match the $$ paid for bags to dump weekly.

So what's better? Depends on your perception of trash disposal. Interestingly enough, the Merrimack Tea rally at the TS really flashed back to the days of social engagement at the dump - get together and have water-cooler talk on a Saturday, and talk about what's bad or good with the world - and bring your coffee since it might be a chilly day.....

andy (who almost backed his dad's Vista Cruiser over the edge of the dumping area the first time I drove there in the early 70's :-) )
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Brian McCarthy » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:55 am

Dennis,

You forgot to mention Wasserman Park.

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