Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

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Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Pay As You Throw
33
48%
Disposal costs paid through property tax
36
52%
 
Total votes : 69

Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:42 pm

If the option was there I would vote for shutting down the TS and going to private haulers across the board.

Failing that if Curbside was on the poll I would vote for that.

Of the two options that are on this poll I like neither one but would have to go with leave as is, since I don't like the agenda that comes with Payt
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:57 pm

Tony, by "agenda" what exactly are you referring to? Is it the association with "green" that you see as a PAYT agenda? To me, if its designed to be revenue neutral it is essentially gelded of an ability to carry an agenda. Diversion is simply a by-product of the main purpose which is that it (the TS) be self-supporting.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:46 pm

Fitzie wrote:Tony, by "agenda" what exactly are you referring to? Is it the association with "green" that you see as a PAYT agenda? To me, if its designed to be revenue neutral it is essentially gelded of an ability to carry an agenda. Diversion is simply a by-product of the main purpose which is that it (the TS) be self-supporting.



Design goals and actual results never line up on something like this.


"Green" is only half the agenda Fitzie.


No its the meddling that comes with it.

First its simple Payt where you buy bags, boxes, bands, whatever to throw out your trash. Initially a voluntary thing.

Then low and behold it is not only not self sustaining, volumes are down across the board. Costs are still going up, but now the "revenue stream" is even smaller.

Then comes MANDATING its use, because hey nobody can admit it isnt working and shut the TS down. The destruction of the local hauler's businesses as a side effect gets brushed aside if its even mentioned at all. Besides, since the town already bought a truck or two, why not buy a few more and cover the whole town at a higher cost than the private haulers.

Once everyone is mandated to use it, how now's the chance to sort the recyclables into every possible category. Since what the residents want doesnt enter the equation, we don't care how much time they waste sorting.

And on and on, government keeps expanding and interfering with us more and more.

Meddle, meddle, meddle......."Live free or die" really has become a hollow slogan.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:42 am

Tony,

I think the picture you paint while possible would be the least likely of the possible outcomes. I can't envision any scenario where use of the TS is mandated. I think we've already agreed on the most likely scenario which is that once the TS is funded by users in the same way that CS is funded by its users, the vast majority of residents will make the value decision to go CS. The TS will simply wither away and in time become a drop off site for bulk, yard and demo waste.

As far as the local haulers, they are not impacted (actually their business should increase once TS PAYT begins) unless and until the leadership decides it wants to take the next step, that being a town-wide contract. This boils down to 2 basic questions really:

#1. Does the town leadership recognize the money being spent on private CS and if so, does it wish to try and lower these costs by leveraging all the waste within one bid?

#2. Just as importantly, once the TS is PAYT does the the town want any more involvement in trash or does it just let the market figure it out. PAYT in the end is nothing more than transforming two unknown variable costs and turning them into a known fixed cost. Good business.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:19 am

Fitzie wrote:Tony,

I think the picture you paint while possible would be the least likely of the possible outcomes. I can't envision any scenario where use of the TS is mandated. I think we've already agreed on the most likely scenario which is that once the TS is funded by users in the same way that CS is funded by its users, the vast majority of residents will make the value decision to go CS. The TS will simply wither away and in time become a drop off site for bulk, yard and demo waste.

As far as the local haulers, they are not impacted (actually their business should increase once TS PAYT begins) unless and until the leadership decides it wants to take the next step, that being a town-wide contract. This boils down to 2 basic questions really:

#1. Does the town leadership recognize the money being spent on private CS and if so, does it wish to try and lower these costs by leveraging all the waste within one bid?

#2. Just as importantly, once the TS is PAYT does the the town want any more involvement in trash or does it just let the market figure it out. PAYT in the end is nothing more than transforming two unknown variable costs and turning them into a known fixed cost. Good business.


Fair enough Fitzie, now we are getting into the areas where you and I differ on both intent and outcome :)


To your item 1 above....The Town trying to lower my PRIVATE costs by leveraging everything into a single contract is exactly what I refer to by meddling.
What the residents do with their money that isnt being taken in the already too high property taxes, is none of the town's business.
If I want to spend money privately to purchase a service that I find useful, I have that right.

Private hauling is working fine, it has for years. The mistake was ever building a TS in the first place, it is a middleman that adds cost but no direct value equal to that cost.

What gives the town the right to end my long term business relationship with my hauler?
And do the same to everyone else that uses private haul CS.

I like the service I get from my hauler, a level of service I seriously doubt I would get from any townwide service.
Merrimack is not the first place I have ever lived and townwide CS generally provides poorer service than I have gotten from private haulers.
I take the stance that there is absolutely no way any townwide CS controlled by a single entity, be it the town or even a business, will provide the level of service and flexibility I get now from my current hauler.
Therefore, from my perspective as the actual customer, a better outcome is shall we say....unlikely.

The time to go townwide curbside was back before the TS was built.
Going to townwide, town controlled or contracted CS, will provide a lower level of service than we can get from private haulers.
At a cost that might start out lower, but over time will wind up higher, simply because goverment adds cost.

As to item 2 - going the payt route pretty much guarantees that the TS will live on forever like a zombie that can't be killed. No matter how ragged and how much uncoordinated lurching around, it will still be there.

(Don't know about you Fitzie, but I am enjoying the back and forth :) )

PS - oh and I forgot this point initially. Any town wide CS is going to be routed through the TS, which means that its use is MANDATED. I may not personally have to drive over there, but whoever picks up my waste will.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Wayne » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:46 am

TonyRichardson wrote:PS - oh and I forgot this point initially. Any town wide CS is going to be routed through the TS, which means that its use is MANDATED. I may not personally have to drive over there, but whoever picks up my waste will.

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't the CS vehicles truck the waste straight out of town? That's what private haulers do now, and that's what would be happening now with townwide CS if the TS had never been built.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 pm

Wayne wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:PS - oh and I forgot this point initially. Any town wide CS is going to be routed through the TS, which means that its use is MANDATED. I may not personally have to drive over there, but whoever picks up my waste will.

I don't understand this. Why wouldn't the CS vehicles truck the waste straight out of town? That's what private haulers do now, and that's what would be happening now with townwide CS if the TS had never been built.


Its all in how the contract is written.

It would be written to mandate the use of our TS to provide volume through it to in turn try and make the case that it is not a loss leader.

In other words, to justify keeping it open.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby MMK » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:51 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:Its all in how the contract is written.

It would be written to mandate the use of our TS to provide volume through it to in turn try and make the case that it is not a loss leader.

In other words, to justify keeping it open.


Why would the town contract with a private CS hauler and then mandate they bring the trash to the TS?

That would only mean handling the trash twice and increasing costs!

Brilliant!
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Fitzie » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:07 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:
Fitzie wrote:Tony,

I think the picture you paint while possible would be the least likely of the possible outcomes. I can't envision any scenario where use of the TS is mandated. I think we've already agreed on the most likely scenario which is that once the TS is funded by users in the same way that CS is funded by its users, the vast majority of residents will make the value decision to go CS. The TS will simply wither away and in time become a drop off site for bulk, yard and demo waste.

As far as the local haulers, they are not impacted (actually their business should increase once TS PAYT begins) unless and until the leadership decides it wants to take the next step, that being a town-wide contract. This boils down to 2 basic questions really:

#1. Does the town leadership recognize the money being spent on private CS and if so, does it wish to try and lower these costs by leveraging all the waste within one bid?

#2. Just as importantly, once the TS is PAYT does the the town want any more involvement in trash or does it just let the market figure it out. PAYT in the end is nothing more than transforming two unknown variable costs and turning them into a known fixed cost. Good business.


Fair enough Fitzie, now we are getting into the areas where you and I differ on both intent and outcome :)


To your item 1 above....The Town trying to lower my PRIVATE costs by leveraging everything into a single contract is exactly what I refer to by meddling.
What the residents do with their money that isnt being taken in the already too high property taxes, is none of the town's business.
If I want to spend money privately to purchase a service that I find useful, I have that right.

Private hauling is working fine, it has for years. The mistake was ever building a TS in the first place, it is a middleman that adds cost but no direct value equal to that cost.

What gives the town the right to end my long term business relationship with my hauler?
And do the same to everyone else that uses private haul CS.

I like the service I get from my hauler, a level of service I seriously doubt I would get from any townwide service.
Merrimack is not the first place I have ever lived and townwide CS generally provides poorer service than I have gotten from private haulers.
I take the stance that there is absolutely no way any townwide CS controlled by a single entity, be it the town or even a business, will provide the level of service and flexibility I get now from my current hauler.
Therefore, from my perspective as the actual customer, a better outcome is shall we say....unlikely.

The time to go townwide curbside was back before the TS was built.
Going to townwide, town controlled or contracted CS, will provide a lower level of service than we can get from private haulers.
At a cost that might start out lower, but over time will wind up higher, simply because goverment adds cost.

As to item 2 - going the payt route pretty much guarantees that the TS will live on forever like a zombie that can't be killed. No matter how ragged and how much uncoordinated lurching around, it will still be there.

(Don't know about you Fitzie, but I am enjoying the back and forth :) )

PS - oh and I forgot this point initially. Any town wide CS is going to be routed through the TS, which means that its use is MANDATED. I may not personally have to drive over there, but whoever picks up my waste will.



Tony,

We will agree to disagree on use of the TS being mandated through a CS contract. That said, I thank you for providing me with a perspective on private CS I've not seen before. I have some re-thinking to do. I'd put in a "pondering" emoticon but I don't think one exists. :D
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:35 pm

Fitzie,

Agree to disagree indeed.
And our exchanges are proof that people can disagree without being disagreeable :wink:
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:45 pm

MMK wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:Its all in how the contract is written.

It would be written to mandate the use of our TS to provide volume through it to in turn try and make the case that it is not a loss leader.

In other words, to justify keeping it open.


Why would the town contract with a private CS hauler and then mandate they bring the trash to the TS?

That would only mean handling the trash twice and increasing costs!

Brilliant!


Apparently I have gored some sacred cow of yours somewhere to result in this from you on two different theads no less.

Actually I agree with what you said above.

But if that's what it takes for the TS to survive, someone will claim that not only is the double costing (actually triple) if you count the captive cost of the TS, not true economically, but instead that it magically saves money.

It will not be true, but watch it happen anyway.

My position is shut the TS down, if you disagree fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby MMK » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:17 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:Apparently I have gored some sacred cow of yours somewhere to result in this from you on two different theads no less.

Actually I agree with what you said above.

But if that's what it takes for the TS to survive, someone will claim that not only is the double costing (actually triple) if you count the captive cost of the TS, not true economically, but instead that it magically saves money.

It will not be true, but watch it happen anyway.

My position is shut the TS down, if you disagree fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.


No, all of my sacred cows are intact. I just don't like the prospect of ideas that will increase my taxes even more!

Personally, I see PAYT as a gigantic PITA that is doomed to fail. While I like the convienence of having the TS available, obviously it's time has come. If we do anything, I say we close the TS except for bulk drop off and go to town contracted curb side.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:01 pm

MMK wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:Apparently I have gored some sacred cow of yours somewhere to result in this from you on two different theads no less.

Actually I agree with what you said above.

But if that's what it takes for the TS to survive, someone will claim that not only is the double costing (actually triple) if you count the captive cost of the TS, not true economically, but instead that it magically saves money.

It will not be true, but watch it happen anyway.

My position is shut the TS down, if you disagree fine, we are both entitled to our opinions.


No, all of my sacred cows are intact. I just don't like the prospect of ideas that will increase my taxes even more!

Personally, I see PAYT as a gigantic PITA that is doomed to fail. While I like the convienence of having the TS available, obviously it's time has come. If we do anything, I say we close the TS except for bulk drop off and go to town contracted curb side.


On not liking tax increases we agree.

I consider us overtaxed already.

In my opinion the schools are far and away the major driver of the high taxes, but thats a different discussion.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:11 pm

MMK

I say we close the TS except for bulk drop off and go to town contracted curb side.


That is my solution as well. IF people want to get together maybe they can go to the DW Diner and meet for coffee rather than hang around the TS.
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Re: Should we move to PAYT or fund through the tax rate?

Postby Wayne » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:20 pm

Jeannine, we agree! :D
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