Hudson Saves with Curbside

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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby bobandgeri » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:37 pm

While the majority of voters may want something - does the majority of the town vote? Seem that the majority of the town has clearly spoken that they do not have the time to use the TS and are forced to pay for private curbside pickup. Since it is only open during the week when most people work, they are forced to choose between trucking trash on Saturday, or enjoying the weekend. $35 a month to be able to fully enjoy our Saturday is a small price to pay. Silly that we have too, but then again we have to pay a toll to go anywhere. When towns 1/10 our size can provide curbside while we can't is just a joke.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby FromMerrimack » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:32 pm

bobandgeri wrote:While the majority of voters may want something - does the majority of the town vote? Seem that the majority of the town has clearly spoken that they do not have the time to use the TS and are forced to pay for private curbside pickup. Since it is only open during the week when most people work, they are forced to choose between trucking trash on Saturday, or enjoying the weekend. $35 a month to be able to fully enjoy our Saturday is a small price to pay. Silly that we have too, but then again we have to pay a toll to go anywhere. When towns 1/10 our size can provide curbside while we can't is just a joke.


It's the majority of those that do go and vote that counts. Those that do not vote are not letting their wishes be known and thus we never know. Those that vote can be counted. Those that don't can't. The town forces no one to pay for private curbside pickup! If you choose private, for whatever reason, it is your choice. Even elsewhere like condos that have a service, it's an individuals choice to buy/live there with those rules. You can pay your "small price" of $35 a month so you can have your Saturday. It is your choice. I prefer to regularly use the service I/we pay for. That's my choice. To discuss hours is a good topic. Can they be better? Maybe. Right now it's getting dark at 5 PM so late operations may not be a good idea. Open Sundays? I would vote no, but that's just me. Open Mondays? Wouldn't help, it's a work day. Modified hours in the summer are very possible with the long days. We already do late Thursday hours in the summer. If we really want it to be user friendly, lets open it up at noon Tue thru Fri and close at sunset or 8PM max and keep 8-4 on Saturdays. This equals 40 hours a week in summer, less in winter. Just an old thought of mine.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Tim Tenhave » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:47 pm

FromMerrimack wrote:
The town forces no one to pay for private curbside pickup! If you choose private, for whatever reason, it is your choice. Even elsewhere like condos that have a service, it's an individuals choice to buy/live there with those rules. You can pay your "small price" of $35 a month so you can have your Saturday. It is your choice. I prefer to regularly use the service I/we pay for.



But...it is really "we" paying for your service.

You say it is my choice to use private curbside. That is true. It is not my choice to pay for you to use the transfer station with my tax dollars. We are forced to pay for the transfer station so that a minority can use it regularly. That is the rub and that is the problem with the Transfer Station. As an old poster here used to say, we are forced under the threat of a gun/jail to pay for a service we don't want.

While Rick may not like this comment, personally I think if those who used the transfer station paid the entire cost of the transfer station, it can stay where it is (I doubt they will want to see that bill, though) Until there is true equity, the Transfer station needs to go away or be drastically reduced to where it openned one Saturday per month/quarter to handle yard waste, tires, batteries, oil, etc. No more residential trash.

Eventually the Town majority will get bothered enough to change things. The sleeping dog will wake up.

Tim

PS: Rick, it costs me ~27/month with Casella and they also do recycling (http://www.casella.com/)
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby RBarnes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:16 pm

FromMerrimack wrote:My comment was in reference to $120 as compared to $420 as Mr Barnes noted that he was apparently off. Quite a bit to be off I would say. That was fuzzy math.


That was a mistake on my part which I admitted to and one that UNDER ESTIMATED the amount saved by curbside, not the other way around. When I used the number provided by bobandgeri you can see we really are wasting money (no pun intended) when it comes to how we handle the town's solid waste.

FromMerrimack wrote:Make numbers be what you want, let the reader think you are right.


The transfer station numbers come directly from the town budget, the cost of gas was what it was selling for 2 days ago at A1 prime and the 50/50 split between homes and commercial property is a well known fact. The only number I was off on was the cost of a hauler which I admit I don't use one. If you'd like to do your own math to attempt to show we aren't wasting money I more then welcome you're explanation.

FromMerrimack wrote:I want the Transfer Station. I do not want curbside. I do not want PAYT. My votes have gone that way including many past operating budgets.


And you are more then welcome to that opinion but if you want to force others to pay for your trash then I hope I don't see you argue against others forcing you to pay for things they want.

FromMerrimack wrote:I think the record shows that I'm in the majority of the VOTERS. I have been in the minority on a few votes but I accept reality and move on. On the ballot, the majority DOES rule. Support curbside for those you left behind if you wish but my vote counts, not yours.


The voters so far have voted for what they think will save them the most money. The transfer station was built on LIES, you only have to look back at the town minutes to find plenty of examples. Take for instance the $1 million in savings because they factored in the tipping fees from the haulers (who never used the site). Take for instance Norm Carrs out right lie that the selectmen could not look at a multi year curbside plan because it would bind future boards. I'm sure Mark could list plenty more as well.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby RBarnes » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:29 pm

Tim Tenhave wrote:While Rick may not like this comment, personally I think if those who used the transfer station paid the entire cost of the transfer station, it can stay where it is (I doubt they will want to see that bill, though) Until there is true equity, the Transfer station needs to go away or be drastically reduced to where it openned one Saturday per month/quarter to handle yard waste, tires, batteries, oil, etc. No more residential trash.


I actually fully support that comment. If I was able to stop funding the station tomorrow and 100% of it's costs were put on people like "FromMerrimack" and the other supporters of the station they can use it until the end of time however you and I both know that if 100% of the cost were put on them they would quickly stop using it.

It's not about what's best for the town or what's right... it's about greed. And the only reason you see most people support the station and fight so hard against PAYT is because they think they are saving money by getting you to subsidize their costs. Problem is when you really stop and add up the numbers, even they aren't saving anything. The only way to show savings is to pretend the only thing you pay is what's on your tax bill. They have to ignore the cost of gas, the value of their time spent traveling there and back etc. The only people saving money are the ones within a 2 or 3 mile radius from the site who don't spend that much time or gas getting there and back and even then it's peanuts in savings.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Fitzie » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:20 am

FromMerrimack wrote:
Fitzie wrote:
FromMerrimack wrote:"fuzzy math"?


You don't want to go there MMK. A town-wide muni curbside program would save that "majority" you speak of so fondly a boatload of money.


Excuse me. I'll go there! I've been here for almost forty years and I'm still here while you are not. My comment was in reference to $120 as compared to $420 as Mr Barnes noted that he was apparently off. Quite a bit to be off I would say. That was fuzzy math. Make numbers be what you want, let the reader think you are right. I want the Transfer Station. I do not want curbside. I do not want PAYT. My votes have gone that way including many past operating budgets. I think the record shows that I'm in the majority of the VOTERS. I have been in the minority on a few votes but I accept reality and move on. On the ballot, the majority DOES rule. Support curbside for those you left behind if you wish but my vote counts, not yours.


The fact you've lived somewhere 40 years does not mean anything and could be seen as more of a liability than anything else. It certainly doesn't make your opinion any more relevant than anyone else's. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not your Transfer Station is failing as predicted and you are financially nursing on a majority of your fellow residents every time you use it. And guess what.....where I live doesn't change any of that.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Speeder » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:58 am

Tim Tenhave wrote:
You say it is my choice to use private curbside. That is true. It is not my choice to pay for you to use the transfer station with my tax dollars. We are forced to pay for the transfer station so that a minority can use it regularly. That is the rub and that is the problem with the Transfer Station. As an old poster here used to say, we are forced under the threat of a gun/jail to pay for a service we don't want.


The same could be said for many other services in Merrimack and almost every town. Schools, library, parks, senior centers, etc. Not everyone uses every service, that's just the way that towns and the taxes are structured. Your argument against the TS is similar to someone saying that they purchase all their books from Amazon and therefore, the library should be shut down.

Not everything in life will be fair to everyone. I thought most people were intelligent or realistic enough to realize that.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Fitzie » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:24 am

Speeder wrote:
Tim Tenhave wrote:
You say it is my choice to use private curbside. That is true. It is not my choice to pay for you to use the transfer station with my tax dollars. We are forced to pay for the transfer station so that a minority can use it regularly. That is the rub and that is the problem with the Transfer Station. As an old poster here used to say, we are forced under the threat of a gun/jail to pay for a service we don't want.


The same could be said for many other services in Merrimack and almost every town. Schools, library, parks, senior centers, etc. Not everyone uses every service, that's just the way that towns and the taxes are structured. Your argument against the TS is similar to someone saying that they purchase all their books from Amazon and therefore, the library should be shut down.

Not everything in life will be fair to everyone. I thought most people were intelligent or realistic enough to realize that.


My response to this argument is that unlike every other service you reference, trash is generated (and therefore trash services are required) by every household and therefore the costs are most easily made equitable. I understand your point, I just don't think the services you mention are an apples to apples comparison with trash. One would think that someone who has a philosophical problem with paying for services they don't use (like those you mention) would welcome the idea of equity where possible.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby RBarnes » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:19 pm

Speeder wrote:
Tim Tenhave wrote:
You say it is my choice to use private curbside. That is true. It is not my choice to pay for you to use the transfer station with my tax dollars. We are forced to pay for the transfer station so that a minority can use it regularly. That is the rub and that is the problem with the Transfer Station. As an old poster here used to say, we are forced under the threat of a gun/jail to pay for a service we don't want.


The same could be said for many other services in Merrimack and almost every town. Schools, library, parks, senior centers, etc. Not everyone uses every service, that's just the way that towns and the taxes are structured. Your argument against the TS is similar to someone saying that they purchase all their books from Amazon and therefore, the library should be shut down.

Not everything in life will be fair to everyone. I thought most people were intelligent or realistic enough to realize that.


Speeder, In the case of the transfer station it's not even a matter of providing a service. The town is proving a lower quality service at a higher price and they have a better option (curbside) that can save EVERYONE money while at the same time providing a better quality service as well.

Lets look at the library since it's the most equal comparison which unlike the school isn't regulated to the teeth by state and federal laws.

The 11-12 library budget is $1,100,878
Using the 50/50 split between business property and home property taxes and divided out by 9,000 homes that comes down to $61.16 per household.
Using the library you have access to music, videos, games (Wii, playstation etc), books, computer software and more.
If more people begin using the library the cost of proving the same service will stay exactly the same unlike the transfer station so the costs of people choosing to purchase books on their own, pay to rent movies and buy music isn't as relevant as with trash where it's a required service and the more people dumping trash at the station the higher the cost of running it becomes.

If you could show where the town could get the same or better level or service we get from the library accessing all the same items and not only that get it delivered directly to our front door, I'll be the first to sign the warrant article asking for that better service be instituted replacing the library.

Closest service I'm aware of is Netflix which based on their site right now is $7.99 a month and they don't provide the books and music, only games and videos so for $95.88 per household we'd only get half of what the library currently supplies for $61.16.

Transfer Station = more money for less service
That cannot be said about any other town department

So as Tim pointed out, if you want to pay more for less then by all means go for it but stop forcing the rest of us to pay for your more expensive option. Otherwise if everyone is going to pay for a service (like all those departments you listed) then it should provide the highest quality it can at the lowest price. If any of those can be shown where they can improve service for less money they should do it just as many of us are saying the town should do as well here with trash.
Curbside = better service for less money
Last edited by RBarnes on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:20 pm

Tim Tenhave - I agree 100%.
REPUBLICAN - BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE CAN BE ON WELFARE
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby FromMerrimack » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:24 pm

Fitzie wrote:The fact you've lived somewhere 40 years does not mean anything and could be seen as more of a liability than anything else. It certainly doesn't make your opinion any more relevant than anyone else's. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not your Transfer Station is failing as predicted and you are financially nursing on a majority of your fellow residents every time you use it. And guess what.....where I live doesn't change any of that.


It says I'm permanent!
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Tim Tenhave » Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Speeder,

It is true we can talk about other services, but we should not overlook that the precedent has been set for what I stated.

Back in the early 70's when the Wastewater (sewer) system was created, it was created as an enterprise fund where only those who use it get billed (taxed) for it. Those who don't use that Town Service, don't pay a single penny for it. I don't use the wastewater (sewer) system, and I don't pay for those salaries, retirements, building, vehicles, pipes, scrubbers, etc.

So Merrimack has shown that it can operate a waste system and only charge the users. Why can't the same be done for the other waste that is generated? Why can't we treat solid waste the same way?

If you followed me when I was a Councilor, I moved or tried to move many lightly used services or non-essential Town services to user/fee based systems (or just stop all together). I and the then Council was partially sucessful. It is time to be more successful and reduce the size of government and essentially reduce our tax bills by removing services I/we choose not to use and wish I/we did not have to pay for.

Just my perspective, it has not changed...

Tim
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby MMKOriginal » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:22 pm

FromMerrimack, I've also lived here for 40+ years. if you've been here as long as you say then surely you remember that the MAJORITY or residents who voted chose to NOT put a transfer station on Lawrence Rd. Mark, Rick and others put together very compelling data to back their claim that curbside was a better economical choice for the town.

I recall the debates very well. To me it simply came down to politics. The selectmen (and at least 1 self hauler who I will not mention) did not agree with Mark politically and they did whatever they could to discredit him, including using faulty numbers. As well as characterising Rick and other nearby residents simply as NIMBY. Perhaps you are a former selectmen or self hauler. I guess that would explain your stance on this matter.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby FromMerrimack » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:20 pm

MMKOriginal wrote:FromMerrimack, I've also lived here for 40+ years. if you've been here as long as you say then surely you remember that the MAJORITY or residents who voted chose to NOT put a transfer station on Lawrence Rd. Mark, Rick and others put together very compelling data to back their claim that curbside was a better economical choice for the town.

I recall the debates very well. To me it simply came down to politics. The selectmen (and at least 1 self hauler who I will not mention) did not agree with Mark politically and they did whatever they could to discredit him, including using faulty numbers. As well as characterising Rick and other nearby residents simply as NIMBY. Perhaps you are a former selectmen or self hauler. I guess that would explain your stance on this matter.


Welcome to the forum.
Had we been successful in moving our trash handling to Mast Road and built the Transfer Station and all other solid waste services there I would have no problem. It's not that I have a love for the Lawrence Road site. But we weren't. I do admit I am real leary of NIMBY folks. "Compelling data" and yet unsuccessful? And sometimes as some people present themselves, they should be discredited. Actions and reactions you know. I have never been a selectman or councilman and the only hauling I've ever done is hauling our own trash to the 'dump' on Saturdays. My "stance" is that I like status quo. If we go down a different path with solid waste I'll live with it. Right now we have a a complete waste disposal service that whenever and almost whatever waste you have you can get rid of it rather quickly, be it trash, recyclables, appliances, furniture, car oil or tires, lawnmower, etc, etc, etc. I know I'm paying for it but A site (any location) is a service I'm willing to pay for. Why not, I'm paying for the school's education service as well, for at least a few dollars more, and I do not now or have ever had children in our schools. And I do not use that fact to validate the unhappiness I have with school costs. COMMUNITY services.
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Re: Hudson Saves with Curbside

Postby Fitzie » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:38 am

FromMerrimack wrote:
MMKOriginal wrote:FromMerrimack, I've also lived here for 40+ years. if you've been here as long as you say then surely you remember that the MAJORITY or residents who voted chose to NOT put a transfer station on Lawrence Rd. Mark, Rick and others put together very compelling data to back their claim that curbside was a better economical choice for the town.

I recall the debates very well. To me it simply came down to politics. The selectmen (and at least 1 self hauler who I will not mention) did not agree with Mark politically and they did whatever they could to discredit him, including using faulty numbers. As well as characterising Rick and other nearby residents simply as NIMBY. Perhaps you are a former selectmen or self hauler. I guess that would explain your stance on this matter.


Welcome to the forum.
Had we been successful in moving our trash handling to Mast Road and built the Transfer Station and all other solid waste services there I would have no problem. It's not that I have a love for the Lawrence Road site. But we weren't. I do admit I am real leary of NIMBY folks. "Compelling data" and yet unsuccessful? And sometimes as some people present themselves, they should be discredited. Actions and reactions you know. I have never been a selectman or councilman and the only hauling I've ever done is hauling our own trash to the 'dump' on Saturdays. My "stance" is that I like status quo. If we go down a different path with solid waste I'll live with it. Right now we have a a complete waste disposal service that whenever and almost whatever waste you have you can get rid of it rather quickly, be it trash, recyclables, appliances, furniture, car oil or tires, lawnmower, etc, etc, etc. I know I'm paying for it but A site (any location) is a service I'm willing to pay for. Why not, I'm paying for the school's education service as well, for at least a few dollars more, and I do not now or have ever had children in our schools. And I do not use that fact to validate the unhappiness I have with school costs. COMMUNITY services.


The data was "compelling" enough to those willing to actually consider for a moment that not everyone gets involved for selfish reasons (I acknowledge that may be difficult for someone like you to grasp....its always all about you). The data by the way....just happens to have been proven correct.

Many attempts were made to initially address the matter in a civil manner only to be met with skepticism or worse. If you were paying attention as you claim you'd know this.

You'd also know that the alternative site was not on Mast Road.....and that the money being considered to fund the new site was never going to materialize because it sat in a fund unrelated to SW. Makes me think you weren't really paying close attention as you claim, which explains why you took the intellectually easy route of simply calling it a "NIMBY" issue. Lazy, lazy, lazy...........
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