Dave, What's Different Now?

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Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Wayne » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:15 pm

Dave McCray,

Not long after the Transfer Station went into operation, it was followed by a dramatic tax increase. Your reaction was the following:

David McCray wrote:As taxes associated with the transfer station and the disposal of our trash out of town will continue to escalate , it is more important then ever that we go to a pay as you throw system.

It continues to amaze me that the same people who trumpeted a transfer station and its higher costs are now startled that their taxes have gone up.

The building of the transfer station used up over a million dollars which would have been used to reduce taxes, and we will pay millions and millions over the years to support the station.

I agree the transfer station is here to stay due to the wishes of the taxpayers but lets put in a pay as you throw system to lessen the tax burden and encourage recycling and trash reduction .

The free hole is gone forever, lets move on . Pay as you throw is the next step.

viewtopic.php?p=9950#p9950

What I'd like to ask is... "What changed your mind since then and now?" Your insight as a former BOS Chairman might be helpful here.

We now have a Merrimack Tea Party, put together to demand tax cuts. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are in the group that is calling PAYT a tax increase, instead of a tax cut and user fees. What the TC has added to the budget is a tax cut, plain and simple, and the PAYT expenses are user fees, not taxes. Perhaps we have different definitions for a user fee, here's mine:

User Fee: Fee collected from only those persons who use a particular service, as compared to one collected from the public in general.

So Dave, what's your opposition to having PAYT in the budget? Is it that you think the TC that we voted in to make decisions for us should just make the easy ones, and put all the tough questions on the ballot as warrant articles? Would you support PAYT if it was in the form of a warrant article? Would you urge your friends to also support it? I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and I am sure others would also.

Thanks,
Wayne
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby David McCray » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:44 pm

Wayne, I have never made it a secret that I once thought PAYT was the way to go. I changed my mind about it a few years back when I came to the realization that whenever you save a little money, government finds a way to spend it somewhere else and for that reason I began to realize that the money cut out of the trash budget would be spent some where else, yet we would have a new fee for buying bags and a cost associated with managing the bag program, in the end it would more for a taxpayer to live in town with a PAYT program.

I feel now that PAYT is another tax, and that if governmet saves 1.00 from my left pocket ( tax rate) and takes 1.50 from my right pocket (PAYT fee) and then takes back the the buck that was originally saved for some new government project, in the end Im down 1.50.

PAYT is a double tax , I once thought it was the answer now I realize it is wrong and will end up costing the taxpayers more. We all make mistakes, Im glad I saw the light.

I hope this help explains your question. Please call me at 424 2282 if you have further questions.
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Dennis King » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:15 pm

David McCray wrote:Wayne, I have never made it a secret that I once thought PAYT was the way to go. I changed my mind about it a few years back when I came to the realization that whenever you save a little money, government finds a way to spend it somewhere else and for that reason I began to realize that by cutting money out of the trash budget money would be spent some where else and now we would have a new fee for buying bags and a cost associated with managing the bag program, in the end it costs more for a taxpayer to live in town with the PAYT program.

I feel now that PAYT is another tax, and that if governmet saves 1.00 from my left pocket ( tax rate) and takes 1.50 from my right pocket (PAYT fee) and then takes back the the buck that was originally saved for some new government project that in the end Im down 1.50.

PAYT is a double tax , I once thought it was the answer now I realize it is wrong and ends up costing the taxpayers more in the end. We all make mistakes, Im glad I saw the light.

I hope this help explains your question. Please call me at 424 2282 if you have further questions.


How right you are David and it shows you are enlightened rather than hypocritical. We can all learn and when new facts come to light, modify or even change our positions. I have done so on the TS seeing that the townwide curbside can be an option as long as we lease out the TS, get CS for 1/2 what is costs now, and still have access to the TS on Saturdays. I think if that is possible, it is workable but I still am against the PAYT as part of that. We are only a couple of months into single stream and we have a 50% increase in recycling. This is great and if we are now at 15%, I am not sure why they set the goal at 50% since Concord only has 43% with town wide PAYT. With encouragement, I am sure we could get there on our own. Why not have a barometer on the side of the Dan Ayer Recycling building with this weeks percentage of recyclables. That way, we could see it go up or down but if sure would be a great reminder to see how we are doing. You could have a line at 43% to show how we compare to Concord. Bet we could beat it and without having to waste $95,000 for "bag administration.
David, if you watch the presentation to the TC, when Tim asked them to nullify his own warrant, we went over and over on all the things they could spend this "found money" on. It is all about finding another way to tax us, this is the old tax and spend way and we must draw the line now!
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Wayne » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:21 pm

Thanks, Dave, I appreciate your candor. That's not quite what I expected. And that's too bad, I'm sorry you see your former stance as a mistake, I had hoped you still supported the move to PAYT. It does sound like you might still support town-wide curbside pickup - I wish that was what was proposed.

Anyway, for me and many others, this is going to be a welcome tax cut. The money goes in my pocket and stays there, so you can't blame me for supporting it. When I do visit the TS, I will not object to the user fee because I don't expect others to fund the disposal of my waste.
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Dennis King » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:27 pm

Wayne wrote:Thanks, Dave, I appreciate your candor. That's not quite what I expected. And that's too bad, I'm sorry you see your former stance as a mistake, I had hoped you still supported the move to PAYT. It does sound like you might still support town-wide curbside pickup - I wish that was what was proposed.

Anyway, for me and many others, this is going to be a welcome tax cut. The money goes in my pocket and stays there, so you can't blame me for supporting it. When I do visit the TS, I will not object to the user fee because I don't expect others to fund the disposal of my waste.


As I have explained many times, you are now getting a tax cut on the backs of people who also pay taxes and who on average pay twice the taxes than you do so we are not getting it for "free", you were never "supporting us", no, we will still pay twice the taxes and oh joy, that money you think will come has already been taken by the governor who has now passed the entire cost of those bloated pensions onto us. Oh, and the warrant articles that were not nullified by the TC (first time this ever happened), well they are sure to pass and once again, easy come, easy go, taxes will go up and the self haulers will be punished with nearly a million dollars in new taxes targeted just for them!
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Wayne » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:44 pm

Dennis King wrote:We are only a couple of months into single stream and we have a 50% increase in recycling. This is great and if we are now at 15%!...

I know I'm wasting my time, but allow me to correct you: single stream went online in November 2009!

Dennis King wrote:As I have explained many times, you are now getting a tax cut on the backs of people who also pay taxes and who on average pay twice the taxes than you do so we are not getting it for "free", you were never "supporting us", no, we will still pay twice the taxes

I just have to say, this statement is really quite hilarious. :lol: :lol: I pay the full cost of disposing of my trash, and now it's time for you to pay the full cost for yours.

BTW, who is it that "on average pays twice the taxes that I do"? And why do they?
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby JMac1000 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:16 pm

Wayne wrote:
Dennis King wrote:We are only a couple of months into single stream and we have a 50% increase in recycling. This is great and if we are now at 15%!...

I know I'm wasting my time, but allow me to correct you: single stream went online in November 2009!

Dennis King wrote:As I have explained many times, you are now getting a tax cut on the backs of people who also pay taxes and who on average pay twice the taxes than you do so we are not getting it for "free", you were never "supporting us", no, we will still pay twice the taxes

I just have to say, this statement is really quite hilarious. :lol: :lol: I pay the full cost of disposing of my trash, and now it's time for you to pay the full cost for yours.

BTW, who is it that "on average pays twice the taxes that I do"? And why do they?



I think he was for it, before he was against it, or was it against it before he was for it.....Sorry Dave had to throw that in :lol:
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby TonyRichardson » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:33 am

Wayne wrote:
Dennis King wrote:We are only a couple of months into single stream and we have a 50% increase in recycling. This is great and if we are now at 15%!...

I know I'm wasting my time, but allow me to correct you: single stream went online in November 2009!

Dennis King wrote:As I have explained many times, you are now getting a tax cut on the backs of people who also pay taxes and who on average pay twice the taxes than you do so we are not getting it for "free", you were never "supporting us", no, we will still pay twice the taxes

I just have to say, this statement is really quite hilarious. :lol: :lol: I pay the full cost of disposing of my trash, and now it's time for you to pay the full cost for yours.

BTW, who is it that "on average pays twice the taxes that I do"? And why do they?



Wayne,

I have to stop you here, Dennis happens to be right on the timing in his first point. Single stream recycling went live in the November 2010 time frame.

I remember the talk at the time.

I have no idea what the difference is from what it was before, but there you go.

See this thread....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5654
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby andysinnh » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:53 am

Tony - actually, Wayne is correct. The thread you cross-referenced has discussion in Sept '09 about the imminent activation of single-stream, and then it flipped to a "how's it been going" discussion in Aug '10 - so it was late in 2009 that it went into effect. I know because it made my recycling a lot easier - and it was certainly longer than only 3 months ago...

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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby tooth350 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:41 am

I would like to remind everone here that the money collected will reinstate 3 town positions, police and fire, if the money collected went to reduce the costs of the dump thereby reducing the tax cost on property owerners in merrimack then ok but its not. The money therby is a tax plain and simple piggybacking the tax you'r already paying for the facility.The TC voted to implement this because they didn't want to make a hard choice on reducing the budget or raising the budget. the payt i think is article 8 but look at article 5 thats where the meat is (don't beat me up if i have the articles wrong)if you defeat the payt the budget goes up because they added the meat in #5. You can call it a user fee if you want to and have condo owners and apts paying it but they have dumpsters,are we going to make them buy the purple bags before they throw in a dumpster and then check before that stuff is dumped? i don't think so, but the home owner will have to before they dump theres the rub i have with this whole problem.
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby tooth350 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:57 am

Also i used to know a gentleman a few years back that worked for a company that wanted to take all the trash from the dump and make pellets from it, they would haul everthing away and also pay a fee to the town for it thereby no cost to taxpayers but the BOS turned it down, I think because they would have complete control over it with there own equiptment and personel, we should take a serious look at something like that.
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby tooth350 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:11 am

As i said earlier are we now going to pay someone to check your trash when you come through the gate? Turn you away if you don't have town approved bags, check all trash haulers coming in also? this whole operation has too many problems associated with it, that should have been brought up at that meeting but i saw noone on the TC even talk about it,The current members should have discussed every senerio about this before they even passed it, they did not, theres where they failed us.It all boiled down to recycling so the town could collect money on cans and plastic. I find this whole atmosphere surrounding the TC amusing. We should take a serious look at those that sit on this council at ask why are they not looking at our needs and not through rose colored glasses,.
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Tim Tenhave » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:33 am

Tooth,

You need to remember that PAYT has been discussed numerous times with the Town Council. While you may not have seen all the issues you mentioned talked to at the last TC meeting, it does not mean they have been missed. Look at meeting minutes of 2008, 2009, and 2010. Add to that the presentations that have been given in public by Dept Staff and you will find a wealth of detail has been discussed over time.

The tax rate last year was $4.34 per $1000 of evaluation for the Town portion. The current budget proposal shows a tax rate of $4.22.

If the 3 positions are voted back in by the voters (from the 2 petitioned warrant articles) and the fire station article passes, the Town portion of the tax rate will be ~$4.28

That means the rate will be going down 5-6 cents per thousand, a reduction in taxes for this year.

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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby Tim Tenhave » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:37 am

David McCray wrote:PAYT is a double tax , I once thought it was the answer now I realize it is wrong and will end up costing the taxpayers more. We all make mistakes, Im glad I saw the light.


A double tax Dave?
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Re: Dave, What's Different Now?

Postby TonyRichardson » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:52 am

andysinnh wrote:Tony - actually, Wayne is correct. The thread you cross-referenced has discussion in Sept '09 about the imminent activation of single-stream, and then it flipped to a "how's it been going" discussion in Aug '10 - so it was late in 2009 that it went into effect. I know because it made my recycling a lot easier - and it was certainly longer than only 3 months ago...

andy



They did something in the oct-nov time frame though.

Reorganize the stations maybe??
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