Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby joeteacher73 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:23 pm

Tim Tenhave wrote:Their stance on PAYT is really a double standard.

They make no objection when they PAYF.

Mike everyday pays a user fee to flush his trash down the toilet. But, he then has a big objection when he has is being asked to pay to throw his trash over the cement wall at the transfer station.

It is time for equity in Merrimack. Let’s treat all trash the same. If you want to dispose of it, you will need to pay to do it. If you don’t want to pay, either don’t generate it or find someone else to pay for it (not me in my taxes, keep your hands out of my pocket).

Until they can explain why they don’t also object to PAYF, there is nothing to talk about…

Tim


Tim

The PAYF analogy is not completely accurate per my understanding. The sewer component of one's VD bill is based on the amount of water used. It is assumed there is a high correlation between water used and sewer usage. Likely, this is the case but during a dry summer when irrigation is being heavily deployed, this condition could skew the assumption greatly. This is not a big deal but I thought I would point it out.

However, "It is time for equity in Merrimack" does give me pause. You seem to be for equity in some cases but not others. Why are parks and the library (great treasures in my mind) not seen as Pay for Use services?
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby RBarnes » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:49 pm

joeteacher73 wrote:However, "It is time for equity in Merrimack" does give me pause. You seem to be for equity in some cases but not others. Why are parks and the library (great treasures in my mind) not seen as Pay for Use services?


There are services that have state and federal guidelines regarding funding.

I posted the RSA in another thread regarding solid waste and there is NO LAW requiring a town to pay or even provide solid waste service, only assure access to a service. If we closed down the station and went 100% private haulers we would still be following the law.
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby joeteacher73 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:52 pm

Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Dennis King » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:56 pm

RBarnes wrote:
joeteacher73 wrote:However, "It is time for equity in Merrimack" does give me pause. You seem to be for equity in some cases but not others. Why are parks and the library (great treasures in my mind) not seen as Pay for Use services?


There are services that have state and federal guidelines regarding funding.

I posted the RSA in another thread regarding solid waste and there is NO LAW requiring a town to pay or even provide solid waste service, only assure access to a service. If we closed down the station and went 100% private haulers we would still be following the law.


I am so tired of this argument, It was all said years ago, the town was given the choice of town wide curbside and the TS, the voters chose the TS and that is what the town is using to abide by the law. The TS is the access we are required to provide and EVERYONE in town can use it.

Condo's can vote tomorrow to self haul, the 2,000+ single family homes that chose CS can always switch to the TS. The Town must ensure the access, if the TS was closed, then the only way to ensure all would use CS would be to have a town wide CS provider, you simply could not say self haulers, we are closing the TS so you now have to pay for CS, nope, that would never fly. So the choice is town wide curbside or what we have now, choice. Well this issue was put to a vote and the taxpayers chose the TS, you are suggesting we throw away the millions invested in the TS just to get it off your road and that is just wrong.
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby RBarnes » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:19 pm

Dennis King wrote:I am so tired of this argument, It was all said years ago, the town was given the choice of town wide curbside and the TS, the voters chose the TS and that is what the town is using to abide by the law. The TS is the access we are required to provide and EVERYONE in town can use it.


Dennis here is the actual RSA and it's wording

RSA149 M-17
"Each town shall either provide a facility or assure access to another approved solid waste facility for its residents. A town may choose whether to include any associated costs in its tax base."


As long as the people of this town have access to another facility (which we do via the local haulers) the town has meet its requirements.

Condo's can vote tomorrow to self haul, the 2,000+ single family homes that chose CS can always switch to the TS. The Town must ensure the access, if the TS was closed, then the only way to ensure all would use CS would be to have a town wide CS provider, you simply could not say self haulers, we are closing the TS so you now have to pay for CS, nope, that would never fly.


The town does NOT have to pay for ANYTHING. Says so right there in the law.

So the choice is town wide curbside or what we have now, choice. Well this issue was put to a vote and the taxpayers chose the TS, you are suggesting we throw away the millions invested in the TS just to get it off your road and that is just wrong.


Dennis, even if tomorrow the town packed up the transfer station and moved it to the furthest southern site of town I would still be against it because it's a waste of my tax dollars and there is a viable free market solution which is better and cheaper per household.

Tossing more money after wasting millions doesn't make it a better idea, it makes it a bigger waste of tax dollars.

Since the facility was built we've seen there was no million in savings that you and others claimed there would be. Instead we see we spend the same in property taxes as we would have with a curbside plan that would have covered the entire town instead of just 1/3 of it.

What I find the most telling in your whole argument here is that you admit that putting the cost of the facility on those who actually use it would kill it. Think about it Dennis, isn't that a clear sign that the station isn't working? Isn't that a clear sign that the free market might be the better option?
You want to use the free market everywhere else, what makes trash different?
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:33 pm

RBarnes

If I'm not a "friend" of the tea movement then there are very few people in this town who are so if Mike is kicking people like me off the site then clearly he doesn't want an open movement, he wants a dictatorship with followers who will only agree with his views and not think for themselves.


Are you kidding me? They actually kicked you off the site? Hmmm...
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Tim Tenhave » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:00 pm

joeteacher73 wrote:
Tim Tenhave wrote:Their stance on PAYT is really a double standard.

They make no objection when they PAYF.

Mike everyday pays a user fee to flush his trash down the toilet. But, he then has a big objection when he has is being asked to pay to throw his trash over the cement wall at the transfer station.

It is time for equity in Merrimack. Let’s treat all trash the same. If you want to dispose of it, you will need to pay to do it. If you don’t want to pay, either don’t generate it or find someone else to pay for it (not me in my taxes, keep your hands out of my pocket).

Until they can explain why they don’t also object to PAYF, there is nothing to talk about…

Tim


Tim

The PAYF analogy is not completely accurate per my understanding. The sewer component of one's VD bill is based on the amount of water used. It is assumed there is a high correlation between water used and sewer usage. Likely, this is the case but during a dry summer when irrigation is being heavily deployed, this condition could skew the assumption greatly. This is not a big deal but I thought I would point it out.

However, "It is time for equity in Merrimack" does give me pause. You seem to be for equity in some cases but not others. Why are parks and the library (great treasures in my mind) not seen as Pay for Use services?


Joe,

You don't pay based on your water usage. You pay a flat fee like all other homes on sewer. As you note, it is difficult to know the waste water use of each resident and instead of putting in some form a metering system at every home, this is the current process. Not perfect but at least the taxpayers are not funding a single penny of its operation.

I will also note that when I was Town Councilor, I tried twise (with actual motions at public meetings along with attempts in negotiations) to make the MYA a user fee system and took tremendous heat for that stance. In both instances, the Council did not support me. I also supported reduced budgets for the Library. When it comes to the seniors, I decided that if my fellow Councilors would not support the change in the MYA, then I would not move on the seniors and keep the funding.

As to Town parks, there are user fees to rent the fields and use them. We changed those fees to more represent costs while I was on the Council and the Council took heat from some for that as well. To use the parks by just walking over and using them, there is no fee as anyone can just do that. There is not exclusion and no special inclusion either.

I did then and continue to support a user fee system for the Merrimack sewer (wastewater) system.

Tim
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby joeteacher73 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:29 pm

Tim,

I was not aware the way sewer charges have been calculated. Thanks for the information. I better understand your position.

I still see some complication with PAYT based on my understanding. For example, if someone does not use the TS at all they are "still paying for it" via their tax payments. PAYT then does not fully absolve them of their liability to support the TS. Is this correct?

Likewise, someone who used the TS before now is seeing a tax increase (it maybe justified) as the previous system was paid for and open to all Merrimack residents. Those homeowners who did not use the station did so by choice.

Would it have been simpler to allow free access to the recycling center and have a sticker that cost $X/year?
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:53 am

This oughta be good.........

This is starting as a result of PAYT, which SHOULD be a TP's wet dream. I wonder if he'll invite one of the 4500 with CS who are suffering from taxation without representation. I sure hope Sarah shows up, I could use some amusement.

Anyone still wondering why Town Manager's don't stick around???? :D
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:31 am

Fitzie wrote:This oughta be good.........

This is starting as a result of PAYT, which SHOULD be a TP's wet dream. I wonder if he'll invite one of the 4500 with CS who are suffering from taxation without representation. I sure hope Sarah shows up, I could use some amusement.

Anyone still wondering why Town Manager's don't stick around???? :D


Each and everyone of them choose to do this, the 2000 single family homes can always choose to go to the TS as can the 2,200 or so condo owners (I printed the exact numbers in an earlier post).

Choice, that is what it is all about, always has been. After all Mark, you chose to move on the eve of the vote for the TS. I guess you saw the hand writing on the wall and took the opportunity to leave your house across the dump when you could. You live in another town and still, you can not stand to let this go. Very sad indeed.
Oh, and your language, wet ------, pretty gross but no worries, I am sure Nat will let that go too!
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Fitzie » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:02 am

Oh Dennis....please. I know you were disappointed when I left for somehow you felt it robbed you of something. That's sad....but that's on you.

You want to go the personal road Dennis you're going to come in a distant 2nd. To quote Jackie Gleason when accused of being drunk: "Yes, I'm drunk but you're ugly and I'll be sober in the morning". I moved....you are still you.

Now back to the issue which you'd love to avoid by talking about me........the TS is failing.....and you want everyone to bail you and your ego out. You act as though the warrant article in 2003 contained language mandating the TS continue regardless of how poorly it performs. Not true.
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Fitzie » Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Rather than telling scary stories and turning PAYT into a symbol for some larger agenda, I suggest those prone to such actions simply take the time to learn something about it.

http://reason.org/files/a4e176b96ff713f ... afd71c.pdf

To my knowledge "Reason" is considered a conservative piece with libertarian leanings, but who knows and I don't think it matters. This document provides people ACTUALLY INTERESTED IN LEARNING ABOUT THE PAYT MECHANISMS, CHALLENGES, BENEFITS AND FAULTS with a very good baseline from which to view the issue. IT HOWEVER WILL BE NO USE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALTERNATIVE MOTIVES, HAVE ALREADY MADE UP THEIR MINDS EITHER WAY OR VIEW ANY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES TO THE TS AS A RESULT AS A BLOW TO THEIR PERSONAL SENSE OF SELF.

You wanna go Dennis? We'll go.......... :lol:
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Fitzie » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:44 am

Has the Tea Party taken a formal position on the PAYT question? I ask because I'm curious if they recognize that PAYT actually falls in line with their beliefs.

There was a lot of talk about PAYT prompting a "tea party". What happened?
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby RBarnes » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:17 am

Fitzie wrote:Has the Tea Party taken a formal position on the PAYT question? I ask because I'm curious if they recognize that PAYT actually falls in line with their beliefs.


Yes, they oppose it. And clearly Mike opposes free speech as well because he blocked me from posting any comments on his facebook page when I pointed out that PAYT is the conservative, lower government, lower taxes option.

He continues to rant about it being a "double tax".

I personally find it funny that someone such as myself who has several libertarian and small government conservative links in their facebook account, who's been actively pushing for less spending on every level of government, who's been involved in other tea party groups including the NH tea party which existed even before the national one ever got started is not considered a friend of the Merrimack tea party because I don't support forcing my neighbors to pay my trash bill.

The only other group I've seen block people from posting opinions contrary to what they preach is Blue Hampshire, the NH Democrat's site.

In my opinion, if you cannot defend your opinion to those who disagree with you and you have to shut down any discussion points contrary to your own then it shows your argument to be weak and unsupportable. That's why I always welcome people who disagree with me to have civil discussions where I can present my own arguments back and counter their arguments.
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Re: Trash program prompts Tea Party in Merrimack

Postby Fitzie » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:26 am

RBarnes wrote:
Fitzie wrote:Has the Tea Party taken a formal position on the PAYT question? I ask because I'm curious if they recognize that PAYT actually falls in line with their beliefs.


Yes, they oppose it. And clearly Mike opposes free speech as well because he blocked me from posting any comments on his facebook page when I pointed out that PAYT is the conservative, lower government, lower taxes option.

He continues to rant about it being a "double tax".

I personally find it funny that someone such as myself who has several libertarian and small government conservative links in their facebook account, who's been actively pushing for less spending on every level of government, who's been involved in other tea party groups including the NH tea party which existed even before the national one ever got started is not considered a friend of the Merrimack tea party because I don't support forcing my neighbors to pay my trash bill.

The only other group I've seen block people from posting opinions contrary to what they preach is Blue Hampshire, the NH Democrat's site.

In my opinion, if you cannot defend your opinion to those who disagree with you and you have to shut down any discussion points contrary to your own then it shows your argument to be weak and unsupportable. That's why I always welcome people who disagree with me to have civil discussions where I can present my own arguments back and counter their arguments.


Who speaks on their behalf with respect to PAYT? I would come out of retirement and even subject myself to an appearance on MMK Matters for the opportunity to debate them on this. Now THAT would be fun. :D
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