What is the difference?

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Re: What is the difference?

Postby MissyB » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:19 pm

Lynn,

When is Deliberative Session. I looked on the Town website and didn't see it posted.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby lynn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:33 pm

school is mon 3/7
town is wed 3/9
voting is april 12
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby MissyB » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:19 pm

Thanks, Lynn.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:23 pm

So when this results not in a savings, but an increase because costs have gone up, do we have redress beyond saying "I told you so"?
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby lynn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:28 pm

next years election
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:30 pm

lynn wrote:nothing is decided yet
the deliberative session is still to come and then we will know what
we will really be able to vote on.

see you there


Lynn, you should watch the TV show when it is available (funny, system is down for Maintenance since Friday when the TC should have been up on the site, still not working but one day, it should be).

I do not know if you stayed to the end but this all went down when most people left. It was appalling and since the TC now has the power, even if we changed the wording of the article, it is only advisory and the TC has already said they are FORCING (Dan's exact words), forcing PAYT on us. The years of demonizing people for simply throwing away their trash have finally worked, they are now the "evil" self haulers, knuckle dragger's who care nothing for the planet and are worthy of scorn. All I heard was the "fairness" argument over and over and the simple fact that these very same self haulers not only paid for the TS and pay for the upkeep, they also PAY significantly more in taxes, well, that is all overlooked.

Rom said it best, never let a crisis go to waste. They made the crisis and instead of letting the town decide, they have drawn their knifes and cut the heart out of our democracy. Tyranny now rules, before you know it, the secret police will be out there looking to see if you mow your lawn with the correct mover, don't use salt to melt the snow (no slip and fall, much better), control the size of the portion you get at the restaurant, oh the list is endless, once the government takes control of others lives, well they become intoxicated by the power and drink again and again, issuing new edicts with each sip.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:37 pm

Payt is not about economics and never has been.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:47 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:Payt is not about economics and never has been.


You are right Tony, it is all about getting the TS closed so the Lawrence road people will be happy.

We spent millions on the TS and are still paying off the note. This is a tyrannical move and thanks to the TC, the only recourse we have is 1,250 signatures. Of course Tim only needed 25 to pull off his little bait and switch maneuver. Open up the issue again with the warrant and then talk them into making it USELESS since no way do you want the people to decide. After all, those evil knuckle dragging self haulers are a dangerous lot!
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby chancellor » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:50 pm

Dennis King wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:Payt is not about economics and never has been.


You are right Tony, it is all about getting the TS closed so the Lawrence road people will be happy.

We spent millions on the TS and are still paying off the note. This is a tyrannical move and thanks to the TC, the only recourse we have is 1,250 signatures. Of course Tim only needed 25 to pull off his little bait and switch maneuver. Open up the issue again with the warrant and then talk them into making it USELESS since no way do you want the people to decide. After all, those evil knuckle dragging self haulers are a dangerous lot!


Dennis, why would it be about Lawrence road people - I mean, why would PAYT be about satisfying just a few? This whole issue, and how it came down is quite strange - almost underhanded. I would say that 1250 signature doesn't seem to be that much. Are petitions allowed to be signed electronically?
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:58 pm

As far as I know, you must have original signatures and unless you have stood in the cold for over 2 hours just to get 25 signatures, you really have no idea how long it takes to get ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY signatures. Tim pulled this off with only 25.

Now it is not all about LR, the tree hugger crowd loves to force us to recycle. I am sure there are other reasons but it is sad to see we are losing our democracy. In years past, town selectmen would never have even thought of such a move, the will of the people was everything. Sadly, while Egypt moves forward, we are sliding the into the abyss.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:01 pm

Dennis

My online petition for the traffic lights on Continental got plenty of attention - enough to get someone to act upon it. It would be worth a try. Better than doing nothing.
REPUBLICAN - BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE CAN BE ON WELFARE
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:43 pm

Dennis King wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:Payt is not about economics and never has been.


You are right Tony, it is all about getting the TS closed so the Lawrence road people will be happy.

We spent millions on the TS and are still paying off the note. This is a tyrannical move and thanks to the TC, the only recourse we have is 1,250 signatures. Of course Tim only needed 25 to pull off his little bait and switch maneuver. Open up the issue again with the warrant and then talk them into making it USELESS since no way do you want the people to decide. After all, those evil knuckle dragging self haulers are a dangerous lot!


Sorry Dennis, I will have to continue to pop in when you start lying. I will do so every time, so be warned.

The TS was paid for from an enterprise fund funded by the collected revenues of residents who had curbside while the landfill existed.

Be accurate or be corrected.

PAYT is not a tax, it's a user fee and the most equitable one available to a community. You should love it, you're arguing for the same thing on other costs. It's been instituted in hundreds of communities and to my knowledge not ONE has adopted fascism or ethnic cleansing.

WHAT Lawrence Road people are you referring to? WHO?
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:51 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:So when this results not in a savings, but an increase because costs have gone up, do we have redress beyond saying "I told you so"?


Tony,

The point of PAYT is that the costs, whether they go up or down, are allocated to those using the service. If the PAYT fee is set to cover fixed and variable costs the impact on people such as yourself with CS will be $0 because your waste is being taken directly out of town. Dennis' fear is that PAYT is the death knell for the TS because without being funded through the tax base (made up by 70% of people like you who get no service from the TS) it will cease to exist and Dennis' ego hurt.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby TonyRichardson » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:38 pm

Fitzie wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:So when this results not in a savings, but an increase because costs have gone up, do we have redress beyond saying "I told you so"?


Tony,

The point of PAYT is that the costs, whether they go up or down, are allocated to those using the service. If the PAYT fee is set to cover fixed and variable costs the impact on people such as yourself with CS will be $0 because your waste is being taken directly out of town. Dennis' fear is that PAYT is the death knell for the TS because without being funded through the tax base (made up by 70% of people like you who get no service from the TS) it will cease to exist and Dennis' ego hurt.


Since the TS does not self fund currently it already is costing me even though I do not use it, and the costs go up every single year, in personnel costs if nothing else.

Payt is not about economics, its about a specific agenda, it always has been.

Payt will not do well in this town.

People don't particularly care for change, especially when they do not want it in the first place and it is forced on them anyway.
Some people that you would expect to use Payt will contract with private haulers just because the way this is being done pisses them off.
The question then becomes how many.

I do not believe there will be enough volume using Payt to meet the costs involved.
Recyclying only ever works economically in very high volume, we don't have that here.
I doubt if all the money collected from selling recyclables to the recylciing company currently could even cover the salaries of the personnel involved.
Somebody that actually has real figures could chime in here, but we are not a large enough town to meet the minimum volumes required in the past to make it pay.

As far as I am concerned the Transfer Station and everything associated with it is an unrecoverable cost that we will be paying on for decades where the costs have already far exceeded the benefits... this was true even before it was built.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:58 pm

TonyRichardson wrote:
Fitzie wrote:
TonyRichardson wrote:So when this results not in a savings, but an increase because costs have gone up, do we have redress beyond saying "I told you so"?


Tony,

The point of PAYT is that the costs, whether they go up or down, are allocated to those using the service. If the PAYT fee is set to cover fixed and variable costs the impact on people such as yourself with CS will be $0 because your waste is being taken directly out of town. Dennis' fear is that PAYT is the death knell for the TS because without being funded through the tax base (made up by 70% of people like you who get no service from the TS) it will cease to exist and Dennis' ego hurt.


Since the TS does not self fund currently it already is costing me even though I do not use it, and the costs go up every single year, in personnel costs if nothing else.

Payt is not about economics, its about a specific agenda, it always has been.

Payt will not do well in this town.

People don't particularly care for change, especially when they do not want it in the first place and it is forced on them anyway.
Some people that you would expect to use Payt will contract with private haulers just because the way this is being done pisses them off.
The question then becomes how many.

I do not believe there will be enough volume using Payt to meet the costs involved.
Recyclying only ever works economically in very high volume, we don't have that here.
I doubt if all the money collected from selling recyclables to the recylciing company currently could even cover the salaries of the personnel involved.
Somebody that actually has real figures could chime in here, but we are not a large enough town to meet the minimum volumes required in the past to make it pay.

As far as I am concerned the Transfer Station and everything associated with it is an unrecoverable cost that we will be paying on for decades where the costs have already far exceeded the benefits... this was true even before it was built.


I agree completely with the added note that you could have high volume recycling were it offered in the most convenient form available for the highest number of people. In MMK's case that's at the curb. I did a lot of research on this topic and convenience is the "magic".
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