What is the difference?

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What is the difference?

Postby Tim Tenhave » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:41 pm

What is the difference?

In the average Merrimack home there is two kinds of waste our Town helps us deal with. We have solid waste (trash) and we have waste water (sewer/septic). The Town has a service for both those items.

- For Solid Waste, we tax Everyone in their property tax to allow a minority to throw away their solid waste (trash) for no cost. This is fully funded by every property taxpayer in Merrimack.

- For Waste Water, we ask each user to pay a fee to allow them to pour their waste water into the Town sewer and Waste Water Treatment Plant. The entire Sewer and Waste Water Treatment Plant is funded by the users. It is an Enterprise fund for the Town and only the users pay the bills. The user fee comes as a bill twise a year to their house. The fee is not tax deductable.

Why do we pay for solid waste different than waste water?

- Not everyone has a sewer connection. In fact many many homes are not connected. These homes that are not connected pay for their waste water by building and maintaining their own septic system per Town Ordinance and Building Codes. To properly maintain that tank, each of those homeowners have to pay to have it pumped on a regular basis and are always at risk of needing to replace their septic system.

- For Waste Water, every property in Merrimack pays a user fee. Some pay the user fee to the Town of Merrimack, some pay a user fee to their septic service company.

- Not everyone uses the Transfer Station to handle their Solid Waste. Yet everyone pays for it in their property tax.

Let me ask again, why do we we handle Solid Waste any different than Waste Water?

Tim
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Wayne » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Thanks for bringing up PAYF (Pay as you flush), Tim. :(

There's never been a complaint about it, but now you've opened the door... :)
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:00 pm

Because it is not the same TIm, the whole town can use the TS anytime they want. Doing construction on your condo? Have a refrigerator to replace? Have more trash that week than the garbage man will pick up, the TS is there.

What you did last night was appalling Tim. You are now trying to justify this with the old divide and conquer nonsense. I really hate when you say the self haulers get to do it for free, that is not true, they pay taxes too or did you forget that. I have posted on and on about the inequities we have in town. If you want everything to be a user fee, fine, I am paying enough to send my kids to college, why not reduce my taxes 72% for the schools I do not use! How about deducting the costs for the senior center,the library,the MYA, etc.
How about the fact people choose to live in a condo and they pay significantly less in taxes than homeowners (most self haulers) do?

Frankly, this whole campaign makes me sick. The power grab you did last night was,,, I really do not have the words. To steal the vote from the people. sort of feels like what happens when the union workers show up in force to vote themselves a raise. Oops, that is why those articles are still on, sure will be a big turnout for that but your article to give people a choice. well thanks to you, we have none now.

How cynical do you have to be to propose something to open it up on the TC so they can take it away from us. I never thought you were such a craven politician but last night, you and the TC proved me wrong. :roll:
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Wayne » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:13 pm

Tim Tenhave wrote:For Solid Waste, we tax Everyone in their property tax to allow a minority to throw away their solid waste (trash) for no cost. This is fully funded by every property taxpayer in Merrimack.

Dennis King wrote:I really hate when you say the self haulers get to do it for free, that is not true, they pay taxes too or did you forget that.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby TonyRichardson » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:38 pm

Maybe we should just close the transfer station and let the self-haulers pay a private hauler like the rest of us do.

I prefer the option of decidingg how to dispose of my trash myself.
Liberalism - What happens when emotional reactions are confused with and substituted for facts and reason.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby RayWhipple » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:23 am

Just how much is the savings to the average taxpayer's bill with this PAYT program? Will it offset in the end if there is savings? I can see Tim's point but also agree with Dennis in that it should have stayed as a warrant article. I was reminded last night at shaws that the voters had said no to PAYT last year when we did that survey. i have to agree with Dennis on the point the procedure to get this through was wrong. I wont say I am against it or for it because I want more information.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:12 am

Tim - excellent analogy and 100% on target.

Dennis - My guess is contrary to your' scare tactics the TS will remain open to allow people the choice of going there should they want/need to with the only difference being users will pay for the cost associated with the collection, transport and disposal of that particular bag of waste (I don't know if staffing costs will be considered or not). No more, no less. A TRUE libertarian's nirvana. :D I would also expect this would remain the case were town-wide CS enacted to comply with the need to handle haz-mat, appliances, etc......

Ray - It can only go down but how much depends on whether the PAYT rate is set to include fixed (staffing) costs. It should be a simple calculation though, just look at 2010 numbers, back out the variable costs (self-haulers) for the minimum tax impact and back out both the variable and fixed for the maximum tax impact.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Tim Tenhave » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:05 am

Thanks Mark. It is libertarian nirvana, but for some reason the emotion clouds the mind on this one.

Dennis,

You can look at it two ways, I chose one.

1.) It is free to the self haulers and the rest pay for it in the form they choose.

2.) It is paid for by the self haulers in their tax bill and double paid for by those who don't (or can't due to their living circumstance) through their tax bill and their trash pick-up bill.

One other point about the taxes and such. People choose what type of home they own. You have a single family, some have an apartment, some have a condo/duplex. The State dictates the way taxes are applied. If you don't like how the State decides on the tax structure, find another State that suits you. I don't mean this in discrespect. I am only pointing out that the School structure and payment is dictated by the State. Fight that battle on the School section of the forum and better yet, take it to the State Legislature.

What I did Thursday night I had every right as a citizen to do (the same right Merrimack residents have had for 200+ years). I worked to write that petitioned article. I worked to get the signatures. I then participated in the public government process and expressed my views in public at a Public Hearing to ask the Town Council to take the lead on this subject. It was my petitioned article and it was my right to do with it what I wanted. Dennis you could have done that, but you chose not to use your rights as a citizen of this Town. Your attacks on me for doing the full process and exercising my rights is appaulling. Remember that it is government for the people but only when the people participate. I chose not to complain. I chose to participate.

Ray,

The Town budget shows the solid waste opertion costing the the Town 1,190,990. The PAYT proposal does not cover the full cost. It could eventually, but does not now as do have free recycling which generates some revenue, etc. My proposal was to realize a tax savings of $641,000 through the reduced tipping fees, reduce vehicle fuel costs, and the revenue generated by bags. This was for an operation that ran for 10 months. I went with a 10 month initial budget impact to allow the process to get fully implemented. If it gets going earlier, the saving could be much more with an estimated saving for 12 months being ~$788,000.

- At $641,000 it works out to be 19 to 20 cents per thousand on the tax rate.
- At $788,00 it works out to be 24 cents on the tax rate.
- If you own a $300,000 home, the savings is about $60 to $72 dollars per year.

Given the proposal the TC is leading, this means that if you:

1.) Reduce your trash in take to your home (buy with recycling in mind or in bulk). Most people already do this.
2.) Recycle everything the Town now takes with the single stream system we have (http://www.merrimacknh.gov/sites/merrim ... Stream.pdf)
3.) And you have 1 bag of real trash per week... (even if you don't compost)

It will cost you between $52 yer per year (using the smaller bag) and $78 per year (using all big bags).

Some say 1 bag of non-recycling trash is not reasonable. I beg to differ. It is about volume and you can reduce your volume. The DPW director did a TV show a year ago showing how that is attainable.

Tim
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby RayWhipple » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:50 am

Thanks Tim. you answered my question. I lived in Peterborough where PAYT has been there for many many years and it seems to be working out. You spoke of the tv show the DPW did, any chance that is still around and could be put up again the Merrimack channels? I would be interested to see if I can do more that i allready am in regards to recycling. We try very hard but I am sure there is more we can do.

Tim Tenhave wrote:Thanks Mark. It is libertarian nirvana, but for some reason the emotion clouds the mind on this one.

Dennis,

You can look at it two ways, I chose one.

1.) It is free to the self haulers and the rest pay for it in the form they choose.

2.) It is paid for by the self haulers in their tax bill and double paid for by those who don't (or can't due to their living circumstance) through their tax bill and their trash pick-up bill.

One other point about the taxes and such. People choose what type of home they own. You have a single family, some have an apartment, some have a condo/duplex. The State dictates the way taxes are applied. If you don't like how the State decides on the tax structure, find another State that suits you. I don't mean this in discrespect. I am only pointing out that the School structure and payment is dictated by the State. Fight that battle on the School section of the forum and better yet, take it to the State Legislature.

What I did Thursday night I had every right as a citizen to do (the same right Merrimack residents have had for 200+ years). I worked to write that petitioned article. I worked to get the signatures. I then participated in the public government process and expressed my views in public at a Public Hearing to ask the Town Council to take the lead on this subject. It was my petitioned article and it was my right to do with it what I wanted. Dennis you could have done that, but you chose not to use your rights as a citizen of this Town. Your attacks on me for doing the full process and exercising my rights is appaulling. Remember that it is government for the people but only when the people participate. I chose not to complain. I chose to participate.

Ray,

The Town budget shows the solid waste opertion costing the the Town 1,190,990. The PAYT proposal does not cover the full cost. It could eventually, but does not now as do have free recycling which generates some revenue, etc. My proposal was to realize a tax savings of $641,000 through the reduced tipping fees, reduce vehicle fuel costs, and the revenue generated by bags. This was for an operation that ran for 10 months. I went with a 10 month initial budget impact to allow the process to get fully implemented. If it gets going earlier, the saving could be much more with an estimated saving for 12 months being ~$788,000.

- At $641,000 it works out to be 19 to 20 cents per thousand on the tax rate.
- At $788,00 it works out to be 24 cents on the tax rate.
- If you own a $300,000 home, the savings is about $60 to $72 dollars per year.

Given the proposal the TC is leading, this means that if you:

1.) Reduce your trash in take to your home (buy with recycling in mind or in bulk). Most people already do this.
2.) Recycle everything the Town now takes with the single stream system we have (http://www.merrimacknh.gov/sites/merrim ... Stream.pdf)
3.) And you have 1 bag of real trash per week... (even if you don't compost)

It will cost you between $52 yer per year (using the smaller bag) and $78 per year (using all big bags).

Some say 1 bag of non-recycling trash is not reasonable. I beg to differ. It is about volume and you can reduce your volume. The DPW director did a TV show a year ago showing how that is attainable.

Tim
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:15 am

Tim Tenhave wrote:
Dennis,

You can look at it two ways, I chose one.

1.) It is free to the self haulers and the rest pay for it in the form they choose.
Tim


Tim this statement is a flat out lie and you know it! There is one thing you forgot, the evil self haulers pay taxes too!

Tim Tenhave wrote:2.) It is paid for by the self haulers in their tax bill and double paid for by those who don't (or can't due to their living circumstance) through their tax bill and their trash pick-up bill.
Tim


Now that is just insulting and frankly demeaning. Your tree hugger status is secure and this is a way to wack the evil self haulers. In November we started single stream recycling, we are now throwing away 50% more recyclables in only 3 months time! That is where Tom was rattled by the double counting since at best they were projecting a 50% recycling rate and we are now at 15% and if we worked with people, I am sure we would get a lot closer to that goal without wasting $95,000.00 in "bag administration"

Tim Tenhave wrote:One other point about the taxes and such. People choose what type of home they own. You have a single family, some have an apartment, some have a condo/duplex. The State dictates the way taxes are applied. If you don't like how the State decides on the tax structure, find another State that suits you. I don't mean this in discrespect. Tim


The blank you don't, How insulting and what an attitude, don't like it, leave! I simply responded to the simple fact that the so called evil self haulers are indeed paying far more in taxes that the average condo owner or apartment renter. This is a simple tax grab from my left pocket instead of my right. The campaign for "fairness", the mantra of the liberal left, has gone on since the original debate on the TS years ago. Ever since, the curbside supporters have waged a campaign to demonize those who choose to self haul. BTW. the whole town can use it and the whole town VOTED for the TS. Instead of addressing my substantive comment which clearly debunks your "they are getting it for free" nonsense, you say leave, now that is arrogance!

Tim Tenhave wrote:What I did Thursday night I had every right as a citizen to do (the same right Merrimack residents have had for 200+ years). I worked to write that petitioned article. I worked to get the signatures. Tim


You support PAYT, fine, you got the 25 signatures for a petitioned warrant article which is the process, again fine, I may disagree but I am one person, the will of the people is what matters most and always will.

Tim Tenhave wrote:I then participated in the public government process and expressed my views in public at a Public Hearing to ask the Town Council to take the lead on this subject. It was my petitioned article and it was my right to do with it what I wanted. Tim


OK, here is where we part ways. Speak to the article fine but to go to the TC and use the article for the people as the opportunity to amend the budget was a craven political move. Since our town was founded, PUBLIC participation has always been the cornerstone of our democracy and this made us the envy of the world. What you did was to use a vehicle of democracy to circumvent it. Get on the agenda and then say, psych, this is not why I am here, heck no way can we trust the people to vote for it, we all know they won't do it so lets ignore the will of the people and drink from the glass of total power, so much for democracy and the will of the people, the will of Tim and the six TC members is far more important and how satisfying for Dave Y who is salivating with delight over a new funding source and "found money" to spend, love those new digs courtesy of the cable subscriber monies, again, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree! Well that man is us, from the right pocket or the left, makes no difference, we all have to pay anyway!

Tim Tenhave wrote:Dennis you could have done that, but you chose not to use your rights as a citizen of this Town. Tim


What bring a warrant for the people to decide and then take away their right to decide through the deliberative session process? Are you kidding, this has never been done since the founding of this country, you sound like an ambulance chasing lawyer, just because you get away with it does not make it right, Oh yeah, you were one of the people who wrote these rules, hmmm.

Tim Tenhave wrote:Your attacks on me for doing the full process and exercising my rights is appaulling. Remember that it is government for the people but only when the people participate. I chose not to complain. I chose to participate. Tim


Government for the people? are you kidding, you used the process and then perverted it on a technicality to get what you wanted. That sounds like government for Tim, not the people. If the people mattered, the warrant article would have gone forward and if the TC had any respect for the people, they would have done what they were there to do: vote to recommend or not on the warrant, that is what they have done since our founding. What you and they did was brand new, ignore the people since you already know what they want. Install your will over theirs, that is the corruption here, Thursday night we ceased to be a democracy, we are now ruled by dictators who cut town workers while at the same time they voted themselves raises, used cable fees to get new meeting room,,, "Mr De Mille, I am ready for my close up" .


Tim Tenhave wrote:
It will cost you between $52 yer per year (using the smaller bag) and $78 per year (using all big bags).
Some say 1 bag of non-recycling trash is not reasonable. I beg to differ. It is about volume and you can reduce your volume. The DPW director did a TV show a year ago showing how that is attainable.
Tim


Throughout history, the government has always used the camel's nose under the tent approach. Woodrow Wilson, after the ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment, called a special session of Congress in April 1913, which proceeded to pass an income tax of 1% on incomes above $3,000 and applied surcharges between 2% and 7% on income from $20,000 to $500,000. A few years later the Supreme Court kissed and blessed progressivity and just look were we are today! We currently pay more in cable fees than we need but it sure comes in handy when the town wants to spend more of our money. Think it will be just $78 a year? Nope, then will come $2.00 bags, then $3.00 and so on, once you have a way to tax people, you will and of course Dave Y. is itching to spend it! I also think it is unrealistic to think one 30 gallon bag will be enough. Using just the 50% figure that was the "goal" (we are at 15% now doing nothing), then 3 bags is far more likely. That is a new tax of $234 per year (for now) with increases every year after that, you can count on that!

So why demonize people who PAY MORE in taxes than the condo/apartment owners! Why say they are getting it for free when they are in fact paying more than there fair share already?

Simple, demonize them, make them evil people who do not care about the planet, then is is easy to tax them for a service they already pay for.
Niccolo Machiavelli would be proud!
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby quickhippo » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:34 am

It is clearly time to replace the town council.

-hippo
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Fitzie » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:34 am

Dennis,

From Nashua (or from anywhere else) your argument reeks....absolutely reeks.....of disdain for condo owners. You clearly have this bias that somehow you're taking care of them and in exchange the Town should continue with an inequitable system elsewhere which you're personally fond of. You are quite literally holding up the TS and free self-hauling as a PERK owed to a group you claim are being over-charged in other areas.

The earlier analogy holds true with respect to the old "other pocket" argument: Right now you are reaching into one pocket, grabbing an insufficient amount of money to cover your costs and making up the difference by reaching into your neighbor's pocket. Have you ever considered your neighbor would rather you not did that and doesn't feel they owe YOU anything just because your self-perception rests on a "win" you thought you were part of 6 years ago? Ever????

Here's the thing Dennis......the TS is not cutting it in terms of services rendered vs cost for an overwhelming majority of your fellow residents. As a libertarian you should be doing back-flips but.....there's that "win" thing bouncing around your head from 6 years ago and it's causing you to contradict your own stated positions in other matters.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Dennis King » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:47 am

Fitzie wrote:Dennis,

From Nashua (or from anywhere else) your argument reeks....absolutely reeks.....of disdain for condo owners.


Not at all, what I object to is the notion that they are paying for my free ride. It is a strategy that has been in place for over 10 years and as Goebbels said, say a lie loud enough and often enough and people will believe it.

I simply debunked your claim and many others that the "evil" self haulers are "getting it for free"

So when I make my point, now I am a hater? Tim's response was to invite me to leave town.

The simple fact is the average homeowner pays significantly MORE in taxes than condo owners and apartment renters, simple fact.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby Wayne » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:33 pm

Dennis King wrote:I simply debunked your claim and many others that the "evil" self haulers are "getting it for free"

I really wish you would come up with a new adjective, Dennis. Describing the self haulers as "evil" has been done many times on this forum, but I think you are the offending party in every single case.

Also, as to the amount of trash a household generates, we've been putting out a single barrel every week for years, with occasional exceptions.

And as for comparing the TC to The Third Reich,...you should put that back in your pocket!

And to Tim, regarding the topic of this thread, I think comparing PAYT to PAYF is a very fair analogy.
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Re: What is the difference?

Postby lynn » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:51 pm

nothing is decided yet
the deliberative session is still to come and then we will know what
we will really be able to vote on.

see you there
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