trash talk, where are we going in the future

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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Dennis King » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:14 pm

Dennis King wrote:I do not like the idea of PAYT with curbside and still do not get why everyone seems to insist this is the way to go since I know of no current CS provider that charges anyone with PAYT.


Wrong Dennis. EVERY SINGLE CS provider uses PAYT. They CHARGE their customers. PAYT doesn't have to come in the form of blue bags, it can be a monthly or annual fee as well.

Nearly every for profit business in the world uses a form of Pay as you use their service in one way shape or form.

Very clever Rick but that is not what most people assume when you say Pay as you throw! It is separating and buying those stupid bags, it is all about the inconvenience of it all and the wasted money. Yes indeed, we will pay for the CS someway but not in the fee for service one bag at a time way of PAYT.

It is convoluted arguments like this that you will loose your credibility. Try not to try too hard, we all know you live on the road to the dump so sure, you want it gone. I see too much I told you so's and I do not think trashing people is the answer, I titled this, where are we going in the future as that is what I am most concerned about, would of could ofs are not going to solve anything and the very people we need to help us may be the ones you are maligning now. I really believe we all did what we thought was right at the time. Today we are looking at a major increase in tipping fees and that is the game changer in my view, if we get ahead of this and cooperate, you may find I am not the only former TS only supporter out there willing to review this issue.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Dennis King wrote:
Dennis King wrote:I

It is convoluted arguments like this that you will loose your credibility. Try not to try too hard, we all know you live on the road to the dump so sure, you want it gone.


Dennis,

I've been away from this issue too long and know too little regarding the current situation to comment on Rick's logic. That said, it is the mindset behind your quote above that that caused all the fury last time. Yes, Rick lives there and yes one must therefore view his comments with this understanding. However to dismiss his input entirely or to suggest it is BY DEFAULT self-serving and therefore incorrect is a mistake. If you look back through history you'll find an awful lot of good solutions are spawned by self-interest, people with a self-interest tend to put more effort into a topic than those without one. It's just human nature. Getting back on topic.........

Am I to understand that the facility that currently receives your TS waste has notified MMK of a pending tipping fee increase? Who is it, what is MMK paying now and what is the pending increase?
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby RayWhipple » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:22 am

Fitzie wrote:
Dennis King wrote:
Dennis King wrote:I

It is convoluted arguments like this that you will loose your credibility. Try not to try too hard, we all know you live on the road to the dump so sure, you want it gone.


Dennis,

I've been away from this issue too long and know too little regarding the current situation to comment on Rick's logic. That said, it is the mindset behind your quote above that that caused all the fury last time. Yes, Rick lives there and yes one must therefore view his comments with this understanding. However to dismiss his input entirely or to suggest it is BY DEFAULT self-serving and therefore incorrect is a mistake. If you look back through history you'll find an awful lot of good solutions are spawned by self-interest, people with a self-interest tend to put more effort into a topic than those without one. It's just human nature. Getting back on topic.........

Am I to understand that the facility that currently receives your TS waste has notified MMK of a pending tipping fee increase? Who is it, what is MMK paying now and what is the pending increase?


Isn't all this "self serving" anyway? Are we all not looking for ways to reduce cost where we can to reduce the property taxes we pay? Remember what happens when you Assume Dennis!
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves. " ~President Ronald Reagan.

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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Tim Tenhave » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:18 pm

Just so we all know facts on this thread...

1.) The North side exit and on ramp for Exit 12 is not on the 10-year plan. It is simply a plan that was not instituted. You can view the 10 year plan at:

http://www.nh.gov/dot/org/projectdevelo ... /index.htm

2.) There are a number of NH communities that have both Curside pickup AND have PAYT. The city of Concord is a recent example and you can find more at:

http://www.ci.concord.nh.us/GSADMIN/PAY ... =G10,13,03
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/07/06850/

3.) The EPA has a great bulletin on it and how it helps a community with their tax problems, debunks the claims about illegal dumping, and it clearly shows that 47 communities in NH now use PAYT:

http://www.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tool ... mmer10.pdf
http://www.epa.gov/waste/conserve/tools ... s/fact.htm

I can find more data with a simple google search.

Tim
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:18 pm

Fitzie wrote:
Am I to understand that the facility that currently receives your TS waste has notified MMK of a pending tipping fee increase? Who is it, what is MMK paying now and what is the pending increase?


Does anyone have these numbers? To evaluate the next step you need these numbers plus:

1. Current TS volumes
2. Number of total households
3. Average yearly HH volumes

#1 may be interesting but not very helpful. #'s 2 & 3 are all that really matter.

The only leverage you have is the volume of TOTAL potential tonnage as expressed as yearly tipping fees to ABC landfill. Right now my guess is you're working with something less than 25% of the volume you have because the rest is going directly out of town, never passing through the TS. On the surface that seems neat because you therefore don't see 75% of the waste in your taxes BUT THAT IS LIVING IN A PRETEND WORLD BECAUSE YOU ARE IN FACT PAYING FOR THE OTHER 75%, YOU'RE JUST DOING SO OUT OF THE OTHER POCKET OF YOUR PANTS....AND FOR MORE THAN YOU NEED TO.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Norman Phillips » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:53 pm

Code: Select all
Some of you may recall that one of our former DPW directors was Chip Chesley.  (He left to take a better paying job in Concord.)   When here, he was under orders to maintain the existing program of free use of the trash facility and to extend the life of the landfill. I find it interesting that he now has arrived at a different solution.  On the website referenced by Tim, (  http://www.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tools/payt/tools/bulletin/summer10.pdf       ) he is quoted as saying:   QUOTE
“[size=150][b]We immediately knew the new rates reflected how expensive trash collection and its disposal had become and that we needed to rethink the status quo[/b][/size],” says General Services Director Chip Chesley.
END QUOTE

Note that this is an article extolling the benefits of PAYT!
Sincerely, Norm Phillips
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:51 pm

Fitzie wrote:To refresh your memory, this was what you stated about three weeks ago. I've done this to the statement I'm now curious to know if you continue to support.

Dennis King wrote:Ok guys, here is the place to talk trash. Like it or not, the tipping fees are going to go up in a year or two and then we will see a million or more in extra costs to remove our trash.

What to do? Well, let's get ahead of this now. I recommend we lease the TS (along with the operating license) to a large hauler who can use the TS in combination with other routes in has in southern NH. In exchange, they will provide town wide curbside. Now the TS should still be open to residents on Saturdays for construction and other large trash but that is about it as I expect they would not want residents in disrupting their operation during the week. I also see we may have shorter hours for the Saturdays, say 9 AM to 1 PM and this is all negotiable but since this is only yard waste, construction debris, and other large items, I do not see that as a real problem, it might even go to once a month but as long as we have some access and curbside, all should be fine. I do not like the idea of PAYT for curbside, I think we can mark the bag with organic matter apart from the recyclables (maybe stickers from town) but if we are buying bags from town, it opens the door for another fee (tax).

I see this as a warrant article for next year. We must research this but I am sure this will save us money in the long run. I also see a warrant article to close and rent out the library but that is for another thread.


Well?


Well Dennis? Should I make a sign and bring it to the DS?

You're so quick to ask questions of others so answer this one.

Do you, Dennis King, stand behind this comment you made or not? No ducking now........ :D :D
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby RayWhipple » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:32 am

I just have a couple questions. First, if it was "contracted out", how is that area zoned? Is it residential and if so would they need to rezone the area or get a variance? And if they did, how would those that live in that area like all the big truck traffic? And how would the big truck traffic affect the roads? Would the cost to maintain those roads around the TS go up? (Ok more than a couple questions :lol: )
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves. " ~President Ronald Reagan.

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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:39 am

Hi Ray. Please specify which enterprise you're asking about, CS or the operation of the TS. The answers are different for each.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby RayWhipple » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:00 am

Fitzie wrote:Hi Ray. Please specify which enterprise you're asking about, CS or the operation of the TS. The answers are different for each.



Lets talk about both as they are both being tossed around. It is even being said that the one company can do both. I just ask my question because they are some that I thought of that nned to be answerd before we move to looking for a company to take over the TS and such.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves. " ~President Ronald Reagan.

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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:17 pm

RayWhipple wrote:
Fitzie wrote:Hi Ray. Please specify which enterprise you're asking about, CS or the operation of the TS. The answers are different for each.



Lets talk about both as they are both being tossed around. It is even being said that the one company can do both. I just ask my question because they are some that I thought of that nned to be answerd before we move to looking for a company to take over the TS and such.


One company can do both and it happens right here in NH.

In both cases everything in terms of siting remains the same. You seem of the opinion a new enterprise would need to be designed, built and erected in a properly zoned area (as SHOULD have happened the 1st time around) but this isn't the case. The existing TS would convert to a drop off area (bulk, demo, yard waste, hazmat, etc..) while the residential waste would be collected at the curb and taken directly out of town to its final resting place. There would be no transfer of the CS waste to the TS.

There is a scenario where the collected waste could be brought to the TS but several challenges would need to be addressed. First and foremost would be whether or not the CS contractor would save money doing so when compared to their existing arrangement. Remember that all CS waste is ALREADY going out of town which means that most of the vendors, and ALL potential vendors capable of servicing the entire town, already have contracts in place at other facilities or OUTRIGHT OWNERSHIP of either a nearby TS or landfill capacity. I doubt everything would fall in line to the point the collected waste in MMK would end up traveling through the MMK TS, but I could be wrong.

This then leads to what was always the 2nd most important decision (the 1st being the town should have gone CS 8 years ago) in that the SITE was always wrong for an industrial enterprise. To your point about zoning, perhaps you didn't know MMK's dirty little secret.......a TS never could have been built on LR were it not the town trying to do so. The town is immune from the same safety and logistical parameters it places on private entities.

Here's another shocker.....when I tried to get the Planning Board to review the adequacy of the site for such an enterprise they literally would not hear the case. Simply refused to place it on the agenda.....unbelievable but true. I received notice 2nd hand it was becaise the PB does not have jurisdiction over the town on town-owned land, but in my mind it was, and remains, a complete failure of the PB to perform its most basic function. I could go on for a while but it is enough to know this: It was only by myself, Norman and Muriel Lortie paying for a TS trailer to travel LR and showing video evidence to the Budget Committee (who did have the stones to hear us) that a bus and TS trailer COULD NOT PASS one another that the road dimensions were addressed and made adequate. In the meantime the "Planning" Board sat back and debated how many new trees a contractor had to re-plant somewhere off Turkey Hill road. You cannot make this up, its like a scene out of a bad movie. Other than that I have no strong feelings on the matter. DAVID - IF YOU'RE READING THIS PLEASE.....REMEMBER.

Back on topic. In the end Ray the site will prevent, or at least make it very difficult, to utilize the TS on a level adequate to service and transport the entire MSW of MMK and most vendors would likely agree.

PS - to any PB member, relation or acquaintance reading this - I know you probably hoped this all went away after the vote and you'd not ever have to deal with this again. Bad decisions, or in this case, shying away from a situation for convenience sake, always comes back. Your town is now dealing with the fact you didn't deal with this back then and instead let the townsfolk tear each other to shreds in the process.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby RayWhipple » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:47 pm

Thaks for the info, you gave me some stuff to think about. The town I feel has a lot to think about in the next year.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves. " ~President Ronald Reagan.

http://www.newt.org/
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:51 pm

Yes it does and its going to be "interesting". The town however now enjoys 2 benefits it did not 8 years ago. Both the elected and professional leadership has changed and seems more capable to deal with such a multi-facteted issue. Just as important however is you now have 7-8 years worth of TS operation and financials to reference whereas before everything was an assumption on both sides. You also have historical and projected tipping fee information to aid in the decision-making process.

Bottom line....there's less of an opportunity for bull-crap to stick for lack of any other information.

You know people always say...well its only trash. Yes, but from a business perspective for a town it is a study in how to evaluate a situation and arrive at the best logical conclusion. It just happens to be waste but the same rules apply to any number of situations both public and private.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Dennis King » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:02 pm

Fitzie wrote:
Fitzie wrote:To refresh your memory, this was what you stated about three weeks ago. I've done this to the statement I'm now curious to know if you continue to support.

Dennis King wrote:Ok guys, here is the place to talk trash. Like it or not, the tipping fees are going to go up in a year or two and then we will see a million or more in extra costs to remove our trash.

What to do? Well, let's get ahead of this now. I recommend we lease the TS (along with the operating license) to a large hauler who can use the TS in combination with other routes in has in southern NH. In exchange, they will provide town wide curbside. Now the TS should still be open to residents on Saturdays for construction and other large trash but that is about it as I expect they would not want residents in disrupting their operation during the week. I also see we may have shorter hours for the Saturdays, say 9 AM to 1 PM and this is all negotiable but since this is only yard waste, construction debris, and other large items, I do not see that as a real problem, it might even go to once a month but as long as we have some access and curbside, all should be fine. I do not like the idea of PAYT for curbside, I think we can mark the bag with organic matter apart from the recyclables (maybe stickers from town) but if we are buying bags from town, it opens the door for another fee (tax).

I see this as a warrant article for next year. We must research this but I am sure this will save us money in the long run. I also see a warrant article to close and rent out the library but that is for another thread.


Well?


Well Dennis? Should I make a sign and bring it to the DS?

You're so quick to ask questions of others so answer this one.

Do you, Dennis King, stand behind this comment you made or not? No ducking now........ :D :D


Geez Mark, you really need to get a life, this post plus a private message demanding I respond to you. In short, yes, I said it and have not changed my position. I am still dead set against PAYT or any other mandatory new "fee" structure. Dude, you really need to relax, you live in Nashua, you moved away from all of this, get a hold or yourself and enjoy life, there is so much more out there. As for the trash talk, it has all been said and I am sick of the argument, the DS will have a say and if we are lucky, the TC will reverse their action but as I said before, it is a high hurdle but stranger things have happened. My biggest objection was in the way they did this, the laughter at the end of their meeting wherein they had to decide if they would recommend or not recommend the article was priceless and quite revealing. They just did not know what to do,,, why, simple, this had never been done before. They nullified and warrant article (their words) and then struggled how to spin it so the knuckle dragging taxpayers would not figure out that their vote was meaningless. Tom Mahon said it best, "just because you might put back the money does not mean we have to spend it". In essence, they control us, not the other way around. Arrogance pure and simple. Now clearly they are political animals so the only hope we have is a HUGE turnout against PAYT. The TC must see that they simply can not "Force" us to bend to their will; Finlay had it right, listen to the people, restraint and respect of the taxpayers wishes is what is called for.

Mark, you can keep your trash talk, it has all been said and besides, why bother, any point I make is responded by you 2-3 times over and then again by all the "usual suspects". I plan to do my speaking at the DS, you could come,,, oops, that's right, you don't live him yet the trash talk remains. You really need to move on dude.
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Re: trash talk, where are we going in the future

Postby Fitzie » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:01 pm

Dear "Dude". I'm glad to see you finally acknowledge the truth.

You are not someone in a position to be offering advice to anybody. As far as why I remain engaged, you wouldn't understand. You are in most instances not interested in the right solution, you just want to BE right. I guess you'll just have to accept my engagement in this matter or any other is strictly my concern.

Correction by the way, I can attend the DS. See you there and be very ready Dennis. :D
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