Why are you trying to take our choice away?

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Why are you trying to take our choice away?

Postby betty » Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:13 pm

Last year the Lawrence Road group took away the option of a transfer station on Lawrence road. Now it seems you are doing the same stuff and the real goal is to have only ONE choice on the ballot!

How fair is that!

If curbside is as good as you say it is, it should pass overwhelmingly!

What are you people so afraid of?

Why do you want to take away my right to vote for the transfer station on lawrence road?

All I hear is the rights of the townspeople and how the BOS are taking away our rights.

Well as I see it, the lawrence road people want to take away our rights.

We should have 2 clear choices, curbside or a transfer station on lawrence road. Why not let the people choose.

Don't you trust the people to do the right thing or are we just morons and bigots because we do not agree with you so the choice has to be taken away from us. :roll: :x :? :x
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Postby Devils Advocate » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:02 pm

Betty, that is exactly what they want. One choice and only one choice. It is really not worth wasting your breath in this new forum concerning this, because you will just get beat up with the same old story over and over again from the same advocates of curbside. They are wrong and I hope the average voter sees through this facade. Lets have and adhoc commitee with the number one proponent against a transfer station on LR put some numbers together. Sure that makes sense to me. Funny thing about that, even if I believed those doctored numbers that include my time and gas to get to the transfer station, there is not that big a difference in the overall cost on my tax rate. Oh no that wouldn't be fair they say. I am getting a free ride. Well if a transfer station passes and the cost is added to everyones property tax equally don't tell me about free rides. Is is free choice. I choose to haul my trash, curbsiders, choose what to them is more convienent and pay a little extra if they still want curbside. As said in another thread, just another tactic to pit one group of people against another. I have had a love hate relationship with the BOS, well BOS if you are reading this, keep up the good work. My hats off to you for changing your stance on this matter. Put the warrant articles on the ballot. Curbside or Transfer station on LR. And no, I don't need a dollar value attached to it. Add it to my property tax. I trust that if it is passed it will be done in the most cost effective manner. Because frankly as said earlier, I don't believe the funny numbers put forward. I have stated in an earlier thread put a commitee together of unbiased people that are not residents of Merrimack with nothing to win or lose. But the pro curbsiders are afraid of that. But then and only then for people who are only concerned about numbers would I believe the results. I have said all along, let the citizens of Merrimack decide and live with it. But no, these people are afraid of democracy, they do only want one choice. We have the land, the perfect location. The facility could be used tomorrow with little work as a transfer facility. Common sense to me. So don't let a small group of residents decide the fate of 30000 residents. Give us our choice and let the cards fall where they will fall.
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Postby Chuck Mower » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:59 pm

Sounds like a lot of pent up emotion. If you can only consider the factual elements of the two proposals you will relieve some distress in understanding why one person would favor one proposal or the other. If you are distraught about anything else it is unlikely that any warrant proposal will make things better.
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Postby joe179 » Wed Jan 08, 2003 8:23 pm

As far as I know, there is no conspiracy to ensure there is only one choice. What I see is an honest effort to ensure all the facts and figures are put forth. If you are for a Transfer Station, shouldn't it provide the best access to all citizens of Merrimack? Should it not be centrally located so as to allow equitable access to all? The existing site on LR may be ok for people in the northern or central parts of town, but those in South Merrimack have a long way to drive. Additionally the existing site is located in a residentially zoned area. We voted in favor of Article 25 last spring which prohibits such an operation near residential homes.

In my mind the choices should be:

1.Curbside
2.Transfer Station on Industrial Land (centrally located).

I also feel that costs (including tax impact) associated with each choice should be attached to the ballot. Otherwise we are voting for an option with the real costs to be figured at some later date--basically giving the town a blank check to pay for the chosen option. We should force our town officials to do their homework now-- so the costs are known now. Otherwise we could be setting the stage for some real consternation as unknown or unresearched costs surface when the options are instituted.
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Postby Wayne » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:22 pm

Betty,

I'll take the blame you're handing out. It was my suggestion that there be only one warrant article. But that is one article, not one choice! And that seemed to me to be a very clear choice. If you want curbside, then vote yes. If you want the transfer station, then vote no. Seemed pretty straightforward. No one's really gotten excited about the suggestion, though, so it looks like there will be multiple articles again like last year. And my fear is that we're setting ourselves up for the same confusion as last year.

Betty and Devil's Advocate,
You've vented, now it's my turn. How many times do I have to say it - I don't live on Lawrence Road! I'm not controlled by any small group! I make up my own mind! I also have no intention of forcing anything on anybody! I'm just another concerned citizen! The Ad Hoc committee was not made up entirely of pro-curbside people. It also included a commercial hauler, some self-haulers, respected current and former selectmen, and others. They all agreed on the numbers. I remember when Mark Fitzgerald was pushing for the transfer station in an industrial zone (near my neighborhood as a matter of fact). But he didn't just rant, he did the research and now truly knows more on the subject than just about anybody else in town. I give him a lot of credit for having the courage and the wisdom to change his mind as he dug deeper into the facts. Now he's taken on the thankless job of trying to pass on his knowledge. And hey, I believe Norman Phillips is a self-hauler!

Merrimack is the first community I have ever lived in where curbside pickup wasn't a normal municipal function. In my mind, and seemingly according to all those who did the research, it is the cheapest solution. There still will be a dropoff area and dumpsters for people who can't, or don't want, to wait for pickup day. Everyone get's what they want, really. The only real good argument I've heard against it is the problem of litter, although my experience has shown that not to be an issue. So let's have a vote - I'll go along with whatever the people decide. Stop telling me I don't want a fair vote. Stop telling me I think my opponents are morons or bigots. I consider your words an attack on my character - the same feelings you claim. Please argue with facts in the future, not emotions. I was just trying to make a suggestion that might make the vote more successful. I want us all to work to together for a solution.

Okay, I'm done venting. I'll go back to being a nice guy now. Thank you.
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Postby betty » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:41 pm

Wayne, you can not have one article for curbsie because a no vote will not automatically mean a transfer station on Lawrence road. I can hear Mark F. yelling now and taking the town to court if that ever happened. You must have two choices and the one with the most votes wins.

Wayne, you also missed my history lesson about the Lawrence road people last year. The BOS had 4 articles and they combined two so if you wanted the transfer station, you could no longer put it on their road. A small group of people disenfranchised the whole town and that is why we had the no vote to everything. Many of my neighbors were upset that they could not vote for the transfer station on lawrence road. These people took our rights away and they will do it again this year if they can. They are counting on a low turnout at the deliberative session so they can once again change the articles so it goes off their road.
To quote the duffman person, we own the land,we own the recyling facility so we should build it there.

Joe, you make my point about limiting choices. If we had to put it on industrial land, we would have to pay another 3 million. Since we don't have that in the budget, even if we voted for it, we couldn't do it. Result, the lawrence road people win. That's what this is really all about. Why should we have to pay an extra 3 million just to increase the home values of a handful of people.

This is wrong. I challenge Mark F. and the rest of the lawrence road crew to leave the BOS articles as is and to let the clean warrant articles go to the people. If your argument is right, you should have nothing to fear. How about it, Will you pledge to leave these warrants alone, or are you just trying to make the choice for us, YOUR CHOICE.
Betty
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Postby Muriel Lortie » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:53 pm

betty and DA,

You really should have attended the Ad-hoc meetings. I found them to be very educational. These gentlemen spent countless hours researching solid waste options and costs. The NHDES attended some meetings and I found their presentations on solid waste disposal very enlightning.

Remember, these men who sat on the Ad-hoc Committee, were hand picked by the current BOS.
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Postby Wayne » Wed Jan 08, 2003 10:56 pm

Betty,
I don't need a history lesson. I was there at the deliberative session last year. There were many more than just LR people. The entire body did what was within their rights, and what they thought was right. I didn't hear anyone named Betty speak against the proposals. The original articles proposed by the BOS didn't provide clear choices, and additional petitioned articles were the result. The BOS is setting this up to happen again. That is why we must work together. Before it's too late.
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Postby Jim Bass » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:11 pm

Betty,

I agree and well said. We should have a simple choice.
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Postby betty » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:11 pm

Wayne, I was there last year but I have to say, I was afraid to speak up. The lawrence road people were clearly out in force and they made it unpleasant for the people who tried to oppose them. They made it a "moral issue" so any one who was against them was "immoral".

Wayne, the BOS provided 4 clear articles: PAYT, TS on lawrence road, TS on industrial land (land purchase), and curbside. I remember a handout with all 4 options saying if you want this, vote for 1 and against 2 etc.

The lawrence road crew took away our right to have a cheaper solution (by 2.1 million) This is unfair and dare I say "immoral"

Muriel, I watched most of the ad hoc committe on TV. Don't you find it curious they all argued over signing it and only 4 of the 9 voted in favor of the curbside recommendation which the BOS never asked for. Sounds pretty political to me!

Murile and Wayne, will either of you pledge to leave the BOS warrants alone so the whole town can decide, or is this really about you making the decison for the rest of us?

Let me know if you support freedom of choice for the town or the will of a small group of people who stand to make a windfall from increased property values.
Thanks,
Betty
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Postby Norman Phillips » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:15 pm

Please stop this complaining about having your rights taken away last March. You had plenty of rights last March, but you neglected to come and argue for them. There were many more people at the Deliberative Session who did NOT live on Lawrence Road than live on that Road. ( The last time I counted, there were only 22 homes there. ) Yet the vote to tie article 14 to article 12 was not a close vote at all. WHERE WERE YOU BETTY? WHERE WERE YOU DA? WHERE WERE YOU JAMCAT? WHERE WERE YOU, JIM BASS? Chris Conway was in the audience. He was a very determined advocate of a transfer station on Lawrence Road. He did not speak up against the article that tied 14 to 12. NOR DID ANY OF THE THREE LOCAL HAULERS WHO WERE IN THE AUDIENCE!!!!!

Furthermore, almost 65% of the voters voted yes to Article 25 which said that the Town of Merrimack was prohibited from putting a new waste facility in a residential zone. The BOS even told the Superior Court that Article 25 prevented them from putting a transfer station on Lawrence Road. Does this official statement by our BOS mean anything to you?

Please come up with some substantial reasons why a transfer station is cheaper for the citizens, remembering that the BOS has accepted the truth of the basic numbers developed by the Ad Hoc Committee, and one of the members of that Committee was Mark Mercier, a local hauler who desperately wants a transfer station. He agreed with the numbers, although not with the recommendation from the Committee.

Furthermore, you WILL be getting to vote for one of two referendum articles, but I think the odds are very high that the Deliberative Session will insert statements about the costs of the two programs. Do you disagree with informing voters what they are about to vote on????
Sincerely, Norm Phillips
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Postby Muriel Lortie » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:38 pm

betty,

Why are you on a rampage tonight? What happened to the betty that does not want this forum to take the low road?

The PLEDGE that needs to be made is from the current BOS. To PLEDGE that they will put forth to the townspeople "TRUTHFUL NUMBERS" for the disposal of "OUR" solid waste.

The Ad-hoc Committee "ALL" agreed to the numbers and they "ALL" signed.
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Postby Devils Advocate » Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:39 am

Chuck as least as far as Im concerned their is no pent up emotion and certainly do understand why one person favors one over the other. I happen to favor a transfer station at its present location.
Joe, I actually have no problem with a transfer station on Industrial land. The problem is there is no Industrial land available, certainly not within 1-3 miles of anyone elses home. And we all know no one wants it near there home. Find that property on industrial land 3 miles or more from any residence and I will vote for it. But don't stick it in some other part of town makeing some other family have do deal with it. Most of LR residents bought their homes knowing full well there was a landfill around the corner. So again that just leaves the one choice of curbside leaving no other alternative for those who prefer self haul.
Wayne, I agree with you. That is all I want too. A simple fair vote and let the people decide. To me that is 1, Curbside or 2. Transfer on LR. Keep it simple and we won't be in the mess we were the last time allowing the BOS to make the final choice.
Muriel, I have posted my feelings about the ad hoc. I do realize the hard work they did and applaud their efforts. Unfortunatly I think it would be more acceptable if it was put together by independent non resident consultants (Their is still time) and not local citizens with vested interests.
As far as not being here and there at this meeting and that meeting. I do have other obligations. Just because you do not have the time the some of you here seem to have does not mean I do not follow and keep up with the issues concerning this town. There are close to 20 - 30 thousand residents in this town and maybe on a good night 50 - 100 show up. Because they do not attend these meetings they cannot have an opinion. Im really tired of that line where were you at whatever meeting. I have a life and its not spending 1-3 hours in a stuffy court room listening to the selectmen get beat up. I can watch it on tv at my leasure and stay as informed as if I was there. Put it on the ballot let the people decide. As Betty said. If what you say is true, curbside will win by a landslide.
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Postby betty » Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:23 am

Muriel, I am not "emotional". I stated the facts and I guess you are picking up on my distain for the game playing I see going on. It is one thing to support your point of view, we all have them; it's another thing to disenfranchise the voters. This happened last year and I don't want it to happen this year. I repeat, If the curbside is such a good deal, why not put both articles up and leave them alone. Simple choice, curbside or a transfer station at lawrence road. DA described the issue well. The BOS tried to accommodate the lawrence road people by pursuing mast road. I did not see any support from the lawrence road crew. They should have at least stopped their attacks on the plan given the fact the BOS was trying to help them. Now the BOS effort is being used against them in the relentless push to get it off your road. I find it painful to watch this stuff play out in our town.

If you truly believe in fairness,shouldn't that be for ALL of us taxpayers.

The choice is clear, curbside, a transfer station on lawrence road, and the funding to pay for either option. I still have heard nothing from any of the lawrence road crew that would support this simple democratic principle.

In short, Do you favor justice for all or justice for 22 homes against the rest of this town? Just what are you afraid of? Why can't we all agree to this fundamental fairness? Will you now agree to leave the BOS warrant articles alone?
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Postby Norman Phillips » Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:54 am

The emotion that comes across to me at this time from reading these posts in favor of a station on L. Road, is that several posters exhibit some form of FEAR. FEAR that if the cost of a transfer station operation is exposed to the voters, as they are marking their ballots, that means---Goodbye transfer station. Believe me, there will be a conscientous effort at the Deliberative Session to attach the costs in an advisory and fair way to the two articles from the BOS that ask for voters' opinion. If the Lawrence Road people do not do it, I will, and with convincing data for both options.

I think it is a travesty, pure and simple, to ask people to choose without telling them at the proper time what the cost is of their choice. We are not children being asked whether we want chocolate or vanilla ice cream!!!

This also seems to me to be the simplest explanation of the 180-degree turn by the Selectmen ( 4 of them ) to go from putting out no warrant articles in one meeting to putting out articles with no information in them two weeks later. Namely, they realized the great handicap facing a warrant article ( petitioned or not ) that would attempt to appropriate funds to build and operate a transfer station in the period of six months.
AND THEN THEY VOTED DOWN THE MOTION BY MCCRAY THAT HE AND TONY PELLEGRINO ACT AS A COMMITTEE TO PUBLICIZE THE OPTIONS.

Finally, Betty, the Lawrence Road people did not speak against the Mast Road proposal. It was the Budget Committee who put it on the skids, before A-B did the final job. I recall discussion with Mark Fitzgerald in which he told me that he could not oppose Mast Road. And he did not oppose it. Recall, Betty, the BC almost unanimously opposed that warrant article. The only one on the BC in favor was Tony Pellegrino. THE LAWRENCE ROAD PEOPLE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "DISPOSAL" OF MAST ROAD.

Finally, your comments on the Mast Road fiasco are very revealing, "Betty" !!!!!!
Sincerely, Norm Phillips
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