92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby chrisorteg » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:51 am

Representative Democracy is a form of government founded on the principles of the people's representatives. The representatives form an independent ruling body charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives—i.e., not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances. It is often contrasted with direct democracy, where representatives are absent or are limited in power as proxy representatives.

There is a difference between Representative Democracy and Direct Democracy. Andy, we don't have direct democracy form of government, but you seem to be suggesting that is how you would govern.

Can you explain why?
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby rowland » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:33 pm

platypusman wrote:Andy is this your philosophy of governing? You will take an informal poll and based on that, make a decision?


Okay I'll jump in. The people have their say about how their reps are doing every election. An arrogant elected official will simply ignore that. A dishonest one will lie to the voters about what he's really up to. An honest one will let the voters know just where he stands and why.

The point of having representative democracy instead of direct democracy is so that a representative can make an informed, considered decision reflecting the core values of the voters. When election time comes around he needs to be able to justify his actions to them. To just go with the polls is to abdicate the responsibility to think.

The polls only register feelings of the moment. They don't directly measure core values. The core values of the voters are what a proper representative must share with his constituency. Feelings of the moment will be forgotten come reelection time. Core values won't be.

Articulate your core values Andy, so the voters can see if your core values match theirs. Here's an example:

http://www.nhcitizen.org/modules/conten ... .php?id=43

Dan’s core beliefs by which he will represent Rockingham District 9 are as follows:
1. Self-government (self-control and personal responsibility) is the foundation of our constitutional republic.
2. My first job as a State Representative is to protect you rights from the government.
3. The people are the sovereigns of the State. The government and those in it are the servants of the people, not their masters.
4. Life begins at conception and continues through natural death.
5. The family is the principal building block of society and must therefore be protected from outside intrusion, including by the Government.
6. Self-defense, bearing arms is a fundamental right protected by both the New Hampshire and United States Constitutions.
7. We are the stewards of our environment; to use it, but not abuse it.
8. Education is the responsibility of parents, which can be facilitated by state government.
9. It is the responsibility of government to protect the people, and to not impede the people from achieving their full potential. This is best done by the following tactics: promote commerce, promote the development of infrastructure for transportation of goods, services and people, foster education to provide an exemplary work force, minimize the activity of government, minimize taxes, and most importantly to protect individual property rights.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RBarnes » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:53 pm

rowland wrote:
platypusman wrote:Andy is this your philosophy of governing? You will take an informal poll and based on that, make a decision?


Okay I'll jump in. The people have their say about how their reps are doing every election. An arrogant elected official will simply ignore that. A dishonest one will lie to the voters about what he's really up to. An honest one will let the voters know just where he stands and why.


In knowing what I know about Andy he always looks for middle ground. He and I don't always agree, in fact I think we disagree more then we agree but Andy always tries to take time to understand why my view is different then his.

And he's willing to compromise if a middle ground can be found.

Clearly there are some issues that democrats and republicans will always have fundamental disagreements such as abortion but on many other issues there are middle grounds.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby Jeannine Stergios » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:08 pm

RBarnes

Middle grounds usually wind up with little to nothing. There are few instances where this can work.

But number one in my book for any politician is to have your own principles and stick to them unless you are proven to be misinformed or plain wrong. Never give up your beliefs to please others or gain votes.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RD » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:19 pm

rowland wrote:The point of having representative democracy instead of direct democracy is so that a representative can make an informed, considered decision reflecting the core values of the voters.

Well, Andy seems to be going door-to-door in Merrimack to ascertain the core values of the voters.

But I think yours and Chris Ortega's definition of representative democracy are at odds. I tend to agree more with Chris' definition.


rowland wrote:Articulate your core values Andy, so the voters can see if your core values match theirs.

I believe Andy does this on his web site, under the issues tab. Have you looked at his site? http://www.andrewsylvia.com
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby rowland » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:39 pm

RD wrote:
rowland wrote:Articulate your core values Andy, so the voters can see if your core values match theirs.

I believe Andy does this on his web site, under the issues tab. Have you looked at his site? http://www.andrewsylvia.com


I've looked. Frankly I think a set of core values ought to be more coherent than this. What Andy has there looks more like a large collection of bromides chosen without regard for logical compatibility. He chooses a bunch of positions from column A and a bunch from column B and calls that being a moderate? That's not moderate, that's just shallow. And what's with all this "on the other hand" nonsense? Is he channeling Tevye?

And it's not a set of core values either. The key thing about core values is they have a core. Where's Andy's core? What brings him to his various positions and can he articulate it? What makes him more than just another panderer trying to pander to both sides?

After the Penn Brown experience * I'll never again trust anyone who tries to pass himself off as a moderate unless he can satisfy a very large burden of proof. All I see here is a tall stack of waffles:

http://www.andrewsylvia.com/issues.html

* http://www.nhcitizen.org/modules/conten ... .php?id=33
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RD » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:35 pm

rowland wrote: And it's not a set of core values either.

Cores are for apples and nuclear reactors. People have brains. Some are better than others. But it is our brains that decide, based on external stimuli, how we take positions on various issues.

You seem to think that if someone has a "core" value, which will never change, it's a positive attribute. No Rowland, that's called stubbornness, and it's a sign of weakness and lack of thought.

rowland wrote: The key thing about core values is they have a core.

The key thing about rational thinking is that it is based in rational thinking.
Last edited by RD on Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby rowland » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:40 pm

RD wrote:[
Cores are for apples and nuclear power plants. People have brains. Some are better than others. But it is our brains that decide, based on external stimuli, how we take positions on various issues.

You seem to think that if someone has a "core" value, which will never change, it's a positive attribute. No Rowland, that's called stubbornness, and it's a sign of weakness and lack of thought.


Pardon your postmodernist nihilism is showing.

I dare say you are well acquainted with lack of thought.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RD » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:45 pm

Okay, let's say it's your "core" value that the Earth is flat. If the Earth has been undenyably proven to be spherical, do you keep your "core" value that the Earth is flat? Wouldn't a reasonable, rational, thoughtful man have a more open mind?
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby TCF » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:37 pm

RD wrote:Okay, let's say it's your "core" value that the Earth is flat. If the Earth has been undenyably proven to be spherical, do you keep your "core" value that the Earth is flat? Wouldn't a reasonable, rational, thoughtful man have a more open mind?


Its that the best you could do? Flat earth. That is not a core value, the key word being value. That would be a belief which can be changed with scientific fact. Kind of like the global warming hoax, a consensus among fewer and fewer scientists, but not fact. Value, I believe abortion is wrong unless it is life threating to the mother of that child, or concieved through rape. But with Andy, if the majority of people believe abortion is ok and a choice, yet his Core Value was like mine, he would be swayed. I will never be. To think, I said you were a brilliant man. Go check your tires, I think they might be low.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RD » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:47 pm

For years, Americans thought that allowing black people to vote would ruin the country. For years, Americans thought that allowing women to vote would ruin the country. Those core values have not been scientifically disproven, yet very few Americans hold those core values anymore. Yet many Americans hold the core value that same-sex marriage will ruin the country. Think about it. Better yet, just THINK.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby TCF » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:54 pm

And that is the point RD, If that is Andys core value that he believes that blacks or women are not allowed to vote. I would want to know that if I was making a decision to vote for him. He has said nothing about changing his values, only representing what the people want. That does not change his core value using your example not allowing blacks to vote, only his willingness to pander to voters.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby RBarnes » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:09 am

Jeannine Stergios wrote:RBarnes

Middle grounds usually wind up with little to nothing. There are few instances where this can work.


I have to disagree with you there.

Look at it on a local level... there are those who want a new Merrimack Library. There are also those who don't and see it as nothing more then additional tax burden.

If a new library could be prosed that would be more energy efficient and allow us to lower the over all budget and be built with the majority of the money coming from donations and grants then there would be no tax burden on those who don't want the library. It might not be the palace with a tree growing up the center with cathedral ceilings though.

The middle ground would please everyone. Andy understands the problem with tax burden placed on people for things they don't want. That's what I take his comments to mean in regards to finding a middle ground... being able to supply things for those who want it without putting undo burden on those who don't.

Jeannine Stergios wrote:But number one in my book for any politician is to have your own principles and stick to them unless you are proven to be misinformed or plain wrong. Never give up your beliefs to please others or gain votes.


Here's where I think Andy is a bit confused. I along with a few other people have made the same observation about him, he comes off as a confused libertarian. He understands the faults with over taxation, he understands government waste... his problem is though that he's still morally tied to the democratic party and still wants to please them as well even though all they want is more government and more spending, both of which he understands as being bad things.

I see Andy eventually being the next Joel Winters and I honestly think if Andy gets in that Joel can help take him under his wing in a manner of speaking and help guide him a bit in the right directions.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby Andy Sylvia » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:32 am

chrisorteg wrote:Can you explain why?


Certainly, it's behind the main reason why i'm running.

A true representative democracy would be far more feasible, but I often wonder out there on the road, knocking on all those doors if we truly have that anymore.

Most people I talk to either don't have lost interest in what their government is doing, or have lost hope that they truly have any kind of voice in what should be their government, a government of the people. All across the political spectrum.

This must be fixed before anything else in our society. If the people don't believe that their participation in democracy matters, our government will cease to be even a representative democracy, or at least a democracy representative of its citizenry.
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Re: 92 Days, 3 Hours and 30 Minutes To Go: Empty Supermarkets, L

Postby rowland » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:00 am

Andy Sylvia wrote:
chrisorteg wrote:Can you explain why?

This must be fixed before anything else in our society. If the people don't believe that their participation in democracy matters, our government will cease to be even a representative democracy, or at least a democracy representative of its citizenry.


Okay this is much better than that issues page of yours.

This is the sort of thing Peter Bearse says. Lots of other politicians say roughly the same sort of thing in a vague way but when Peter says it I believe him. Why? Let me give you some reasons:

* He doesn't take special interest money even though it means he's running a poverty campaign.

* He got in on the ground floor of the Change Congress movement.

* He has fought for people (Hope Nardone) even BEFORE being elected.

http://www.nhcitizen.org/modules/conten ... .php?id=27

* He's taken the time to write a book on the subject:

http://politicalcommunity.us/wethepeople.php

* He doesn't have a track record of waffling online on the sort of scale you have with that issues page.

Dan Itse also says this sort of thing. I believe HIM because:

* He has a voting record to back it up.

* He has a well thought out and well researched theory behind it:

http://www.nhcitizen.org/modules/content/?id=44

* He also helped Hope Nardone.

* I've never caught him waffling on anything at all, not even once.

Anybody can say anything. Your issues page tries to say everything and ends up saying nothing because it all cancels out. Here you're finally saying something without any hedging or waffling but now you need to give us a REASON to BELIEVE you're sincere. You need to shoulder the burden of proof. And redo that horrible issues page. It's embarrassing.
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