Windpower

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Re: Windpower

Postby TCF » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:25 am

andysinnh wrote:TCF - not sure who you are, my friend, but your logic is very strange. I'm not sure if you're reading every other word I say - but I'm not saying we can't live without oil. But what I am saying is that your fervor for drilling anywhere, anytime, regardless of the risks, is frankly a real issue towards the long-term existence of America. Oil in and of itself, while important, isn't what makes this country. Doing it in a limited, controlled fashion, so we can continue to use your oh-so-elloquent list of petrolium-based products is what I'd like to see. But, alas, since you'll be reading every-other-word I say, you'll likely see what you want to see. If, as Jeannine says you own land in Merrimack, can we assume that you'd allow drilling on your land to see if there's any oil underneath it? Who knows - maybe those jack-hammers on the demolition of the Merrimack Village dam might hit some oil - oh, wait, maybe that's the underground tanks at AL Prime. :?


What are the risks? We have the technology and know how to extract it safely, we have been doing it for years. So how is that an issue towards the long term existence of America, To not drill and be dependent on these foreign nations who's only goal is to see the US crumble is far more dangerous. A liminted controlled fashion, Let the free market determine how limited, not to be controlled by gov't agencies. I own a home in Merrimack, and yes its on land. And if there is oil under my property, come on and get it. Once pumped dry, I would expect it to be put back the way it was before they started. I will never understand the lefts mindset. Oil is what made this country great. Without it, we would be nothing. If the people in Washington do not wake up, it will be Russia China, Iran controlling it like a noose around our necks.
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Re: Windpower

Postby RD » Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:27 am

TCF wrote:I own a home in Merrimack, and yes its on land. And if there is oil under my property, come on and get it. Once pumped dry, I would expect it to be put back the way it was before they started. I will never understand the lefts mindset. Oil is what made this country great. Without it, we would be nothing.

You have reminded me of an article I read recently.



Image


Sad but true: Intelligence is a political liability in the US. Author of The Age of American Unreason Susan Jacoby explains why.

"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." Barack Obama finally said it.

Though a successful political and electoral strategy, the Right's stand against intelligence has steered them far off course, leaving them -- and us -- unable to deal successfully with the complex and dynamic circumstances we face as a nation and a society.

American 15-year-olds rank 24th out of 29 countries in math literacy, and their parents are as likely to believe in flying saucers as in evolution; roughly 30 to 40 percent believe in each. Their president believes "the jury is still out" on evolution.

Steve Colbert interviewed Georgia Rep. Lynn Westmoreland on "The Colbert Report." Westmoreland co-sponsored a bill that would require the display of the Ten Commandments in both the House of Representatives and the Senate, but, when asked, couldn't actually list the commandments.

This stuff would be funny if it weren't so dangerous.

In the 2004 election, nearly 70 percent of Bush supporters believed the United States had "clear evidence" that Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda; a third believed weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq; and more than a third that a substantial majority of world opinion supported the U.S.-led invasion, according to the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland. The political right and allied culture warriors actively ignore evidence and encourage misinformation. To motivate their followers, they label intelligent and informed as "elite," implying that ignorance is somehow both valuable and under attack. Susan Jacoby confronts our "know-nothingism" -- current and historical -- in her new book, The Age of American Unreason.
"If you think teachers are your enemy, you should probably reassess who you think your friends are." - Chris Larson
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Re: Windpower

Postby Michael Pelletier » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:56 pm

Ken Coleman wrote:
When leftists talk about "investment in alternative energy," remember that they're talking about investing YOUR money, against your will, in THEIR companies. Think about that the next time you fill up your gas tank.

OK if the above is true then it would be also true to say;

When rightists talk about "tax breaks for oil companies," remember that they're talking about investing YOUR money, against your will, in THEIR companies. Think about that the next time you fill up your gas tank.

False, Ken. Taking LESS money by force from someone is not an "investment," any more than a bank robber "invests" in a bank by taking only small bills and leaving the $100's.

The wind venture, as Pickens himself admits, depends on permanent federal subsidies.

Discovery, production, refining, delivery, and sale of oil does not depend on permanent federal subsidies. Taking LESS tax money from a profitable venture is not a "subsidy," it is the government getting the hell out of the way of that venture.

Pickens' (and Speaker Nancy "Ethical Congress" Pelosi's) venture is an amputee with a government-issued wheelchair getting a government-paid push up a hill.
Image

Oil companies' ventures are like a hobbled horse which still manages to run reasonably well in spite of the hobble, to the tune of $4,000 per second in taxes.
Image
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Re: Windpower

Postby Michael Pelletier » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:07 pm

RD wrote:... a third believed weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq; ...

That's depressing, because weapons of mass destruction were, in fact, found in Iraq, among which was an undeclared in-flight-mixing sarin nerve-gas 155mm artillery shell rigged as an IED, which resulted in nerve-gas injuries to the American soldiers attempting to disarm it.
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Re: Windpower

Postby TCF » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:21 pm

Michael Pelletier wrote:
RD wrote:... a third believed weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq; ...

That's depressing, because weapons of mass destruction were, in fact, found in Iraq, among which was an undeclared in-flight-mixing sarin nerve-gas 155mm artillery shell rigged as an IED, which resulted in nerve-gas injuries to the American soldiers attempting to disarm it.


Don't confuse RD with facts, it makes him bitter.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
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Re: Windpower

Postby RD » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:59 pm

Michael Pelletier wrote:
RD wrote:... a third believed weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq; ...

That's depressing, because weapons of mass destruction were, in fact, found in Iraq, among which was an undeclared in-flight-mixing sarin nerve-gas 155mm artillery shell rigged as an IED, which resulted in nerve-gas injuries to the American soldiers attempting to disarm it.

Ugh... you keep bringing this up. It's like an old tattered pacifier that you keep trying to shove in peoples' mouths whenever they bring up the fact that Iraq didn't have the WMD programs that Bush and Cheney deceived many Americans into believing they had. How many times does this have to be explained to you before you get it (of course, you have no interest in getting it, do you)?

TCF, you try to pay attention too:



Norman Phillips wrote:Michael P., you have several times asked about sarin shells. Here are two reports that should satisfy your quest. The conclusion is that they were left from the pre1991 action by Hussein against local opponents, and have nothing to do with stores of WMD.

Michael Pelletier wrote:And you still have yet to address the existence of binary sarin artillery shells, a technology that Iraq was never supposed to have in the first place and which had never been declared to UN inspectors.

I had been meaning to reply to MP's requests for explanation of the sarin shell, but Norm has beat me to it. Of course, Norm's response is more than adequate on its own. I will nonetheless add a couple of quotes from the September 2004 CIA report that relate to this matter.

A key finding of the investigation into Iraq's chemical warfare program is as follows:

While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad's desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.


And from Annex F of that report:

16 May 2004: 152mm Binary Chemical Improvised Explosive Device

A military unit near Baghdad Airport reported a suspect IED along the main road between the airport and the Green Zone (see figure 2). The munitions were remotely detonated and the remaining liquid tested positive in ISG field labs for the nerve agent Sarin and a key Sarin degradation product.


The partially detonated IED was an old prototype binary nerve agent munitions of the type Iraq declared it had field tested in the late 1980s. The munitions bear no markings, much like the sulfur mustard round reported on 2 May (see Figure 3). Insurgents may have looted or purchased the rounds believing they were conventional high explosive 155mm rounds. The use of this type of round as an IED does not allow sufficient time for mixing of the binary compounds and release in an effective manner, thus limiting the dispersal area of the chemicals.


And to directly answer Michael's question, they go into great detail discussing the possible origin of these munitions:

Origin of the Binary Sarin Round Used on BIAP

The binary chemical round detonated near the Baghdad International Airport (BIAP) probably originated with a batch that was stored in a Al Muthanna CW complex basement during the late 1980s for the purpose of leakage testing. Iraq placed at least 12 filled binary Sarin munitions, either 152 or 155mm projectiles, in the basement of the Salah al-Din laboratory at the Al Muthanna CW complex, according to a report.



The same report claims that only 20-30 binary 152mm rounds were produced, and the program switched to 155mm rounds after the 152mm rounds were expended in testing. The report stated that all of the binary munitions with aluminum canister inserts (such as the one used on BIAP) should have been used in field testing, but some may have been set aside for leak testing at Al Muthanna.

A different report stated that as of 1988 no binary chemical rounds were stored at any other location besides the Salah al-Din laboratory, and that the rounds were kept in the basement to test for leakage and chemical degradation.

A third report speculated that binary rounds may either have been buried or moved to one of two bunkers in the mid-1990s when the UN ordered the Al Muthanna complex to relocate a large number of chemicals and munitions. The same report said that Salah al-Din al-Nu’aymi, the manager of the binary Sarin munitions project, frequently stored munitions he was working on but had not tested in the basement of his laboratory at Al Muthanna.
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Re: Windpower

Postby Michael Pelletier » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:53 pm

First they say "no WMD," then they say "no WMD programs." Which is it?? Don't forget "stockpiles."

You apparently acknowledge, clearly and unambiguously, that any claim that there were "no WMD" in Iraq following its liberation from Ba'athist tyranny is facially false, based directly on the documentation which Norm cited.
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Re: Windpower

Postby Wayne » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:14 pm

Michael Pelletier wrote:First they say "no WMD," then they say "no WMD programs." Which is it?? Don't forget "stockpiles."

You apparently acknowledge, clearly and unambiguously, that any claim that there were "no WMD" in Iraq following its liberation from Ba'athist tyranny is facially false, based directly on the documentation which Norm cited.

Okay, RD, MP's got you there. These old shells laying around unbeknownst to anyone since the last war means yes there were WMDs. ;-)

You and most of the rest of us are however quite justified in questioning whether this cache was worth our invasion. occupation, tremendous loss of life, and and ongoing bill of 10 Billion more dollars per month.
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