School restart is right around the corner

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby RD » Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:11 pm

platypusman wrote:Looking at the success Milwaukee is having, it is pretty hard to argue against vouchers.

Well, who knows where those numbers came from, and if they're even accurate. But even if they are, this is only a datum. When you've got solid data, get back to us. I'm sure Ken has a ton of data to refute your claims.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:50 pm

Even before any of the Data, the claim was made that other Countries students were doing better than ours. I repeat, if this is the case, why would we not want to look at how those other countries educate students? I know why becuase doing this does not give the anti government people their desired outcome.

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:05 pm

Ken good point.

In the Netherlands, financial equality between public and grant-aided private institutions is a constitutional right.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:18 am

Platpusman,

This is how they fund and regulate their private and public schools

In Belgium and the Netherlands, private education is entirely publicly funded; thus, the proportion of funding targeted to private-school students approximates the proportion of private-school students in the student population. The issue of public funding in many of these countries does not provoke the widespread controversy that it does in the United States. In return for the funding, the private and religious schools in some countries agree to honor government standards in matters of curriculum, class size, and the like; and their students must still pass the same national examinations as their public-school peers.


Source EDUCATION INDICATOR: An International Perspective IES

Now I would fully support this type of system. This is NOT partially funded vouchers that only allow some children choice and in addition the private schools MUST meet the same requirments as public schools!!!!

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:47 am

Ken your position seems very reasonable.

WHat would be the chance, a model like we both speak of getting through the all powerful teachers' unions? I just read today, the teachers' union is fighting merit pay and may strike in Denver.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:08 am

I think if we fully funded choice with the same education goals and regulations, much of the opposition with go away.

Now here is the question, would you and all the other Anti Government people back spending this much more on education? Remember under this system ALL private schools are 100% government funded!

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:30 am

Ken I don't believe everyone who supports school choice is anti-government. I suspect most supporters just want to have a bit more say as to how their children would be educated.

As to the funding, it may cost more initially but after time, competition will drive up quality and lower costs. My guess is there will always be some general battles about funding but in a case where parents can pick the school where their children attend, any ‘spending beefs’ they have should be with their school of choice. Keep in mind, in this system if a parent feels the school they chose is not meeting their child’s needs, they can move to another.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:17 am

Just keep in mind the system that you are highlighting the government not only provides the funding, but also ONLY allows what the government gives to these schools to be spent. In other words all the private schools are ONLY funded through tax dollars. Providing you understand this, this is great progress on your part. An endorsement of a VERY liberal view of the funding of education, much more so than I would ever propose.

I am impressed!

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:33 pm

Ken the model we speak of could work.

It has been proven time and time again, funding is not the sole determining factor in a successful education. In this model, while the playing field would be equal in terms of funding, many other factors in a successful school would be controlled at the most local level, by parents. Schools would be free to pay educators what they choose, implement work rules as they choose and instruct students in manner that parents supported. Results and a school's achievements would be public knowledge, parents could be free to change their child’s school if results delivered were unsatisfactory. Only the strong schools would survive. Weak schools would be forced to reform or else lose students and funding.

This is a reform that would help all students.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby andysinnh » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:47 pm

platypusman wrote:Ken the model we speak of could work.

It has been proven time and time again, funding is not the sole determining factor in a successful education. In this model, while the playing field would be equal in terms of funding, many other factors in a successful school would be controlled at the most local level, by parents. Schools would be free to pay educators what they choose, implement work rules as they choose and instruct students in manner that parents supported. Results and a school's achievements would be public knowledge, parents could be free to change their child’s school if results delivered were unsatisfactory. Only the strong schools would survive. Weak schools would be forced to reform or else lose students and funding.

This is a reform that would help all students.

If your view is similar to what companies go through - in terms of merging, expanding, failing, reworking their focus, etc - there is a group that suffers - and that's the customer. Not sure if you've ever been on the customer end of one of these situations, but there's never any seamless or glitch-free transition - and in some cases , if a company goes under, customers are caught with their perverbial pants around their ankles in terms of investiment of $$$ and time into a solution that may no longer exist - or have changed so much that the retooling time is almost debilitating. Without strong regulation in an educational environment, I wouldn't want my kids to be the victim of a retooled or failing or evolving school, since they pass through the system only once - and having them be a victim without any sort of checks and balances is not a risk I'd be willing to take. You cannot treat education of K-12 level kids soley as a free-market model without a level of standardization and reulation - in the same way that you can't let oil companies just drill wherever they want without some sorts of regulations. The right answer is closer to Ken's description, IMHO.

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:55 pm

No No No

I was waiting for this. I said if we want to perform as well as some of our international competitors, we should look at how they educate.

You as a fanatic of vouchers, found the Netherlands as a country that supports private and public school choice. (One of the few International countries that do this.

Now you want to back away from this and say, well we will provide limited vouchers, but still have all the inequity of private schools verse public.

In the Netherlands they take away all the inequity, by providing 100% funding both private and public schools.

If you do not do this, you are not using their model.

I am back to; do not compare us to other countries performance, if you’re not willing to look at what the other better performing countries do.

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:01 pm

Ken the funding is on a per student basis and it is equal for each student regardless of where they go to school.

Each student gets $X based on age, disabilities and geographic location. The parents apply these funds to whatever school they deem appropriate. The schools would aggregate the funds from all their students and use them to provide an education.

Each school would compete for the students based on the results they deliver.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby RBarnes » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:22 pm

Ken Coleman wrote:(One of the few International countries that do this.


Ken, I'm finding more countries do allow some form of school choice then not.

Netherlands, as already mentioned.
Chile, Hungary, Czech Republic, Denmark (is Denmark part of the Netherlands?), Canada has tried it in areas.

In fact there's a book called "What America can Learn from School Choice in Other Countries", I would think if there were very few other countries that allowed school choice it would make for a very short book.
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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby Ken Coleman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:58 pm

Platypusman,

You keep playing around this. They fund private schools 100% yes it is per student, but it is also the ENTIRE amount of funding the private schools get to use.

Rick,

Choice has never been an issue even with private schools. Vouchers are the issue because we only want to fund a fraction of private schools and therefore we do not have equal access for all.

Once again, we want to compare the US to other nations, but we do not want to adopt what these other nations do.

I started off this thread about the fact we have our students in school less time than ANY of the nations that beat us on these test. But we want to look at other answers. None of the nations that beat on these test use vouchers to fund a small fraction of the cost of education. ALL of these nations have their children in school more hours.

Once again, if our football team always loses and ALL the teams that beat us practice more than we do, do we...

Start practicing more or

Outsource the coaching?

I think the choice is Obvious!

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Re: School restart is right around the corner

Postby platypusman » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:07 pm

Ken there has to be an option for a school to opt out of the program. In this case, they should not be allowed any funding and will have to depend totally on tuition. If there is this option in the program, I can agree to support it.

Another comment is we should strive to take the best of other programs and not match up feature for feature.

Finally to the football comment. If we don't want to practice longer then shame on us! This is one reason today we have to import so many highly educated workers. Let's extend the school day and school year!
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